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Evolving the ARPG genre - Milestones & Affinity

I actually made this feedback originally for Diablo 4, but Last Epoch is another game I’m very much looking forward to and the ideas (mainly the Stat Milestones) I cover in the following video can be applied here also.

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You need to write yourself a script and stick to it. IMHO there is too much rambling it hard to follow. Your almost 10 minutes in before you start your pitch. I notice you want to make builds more cookie-cutter. This stat works for X class but doesnt make sense for this other class. Meaning all barbs use the same stats all mages uses the same etc etc. There are plenty of games that have melee spell casters. Having to choose 1 form of defense per “teir” is flawed as well. MS shouldnt be in the same teir as “deflect” phase shouldnt be in that teir either it is a QOL mechanic not a defensive one.

If you’re going to pitch directly to a company maybe avoid the fowl language?

First slide:
I don’t think players would appreciate “gradual movement speed” in a game genre that is attack-run-attack-run etc
Making players choose between MS and being able to see a mob “wind up” for a strong attack would be a flaw as both these stats are essential for ARPGs

Third slide:
Who is removing attributes (str,int,agi)? I personally haven’t seen a game doing that. Provide examples? Also “remove damage and have attack speed twice”. Isn’t that no different than low damage high attack speed weapons which already exist. Making it so a weapon rolls with low innate attack damage just to have 2 affixes that do the same thing would be a waste of time to program. Other stats for offense and defense, so you mean; attributes, attack speed, attack damage, critical damage, critical chance, elemental damage, DOTs etc etc. What more could you add you dont really give an example.

Fourth slide:
The example with the “hunter” is already implemented in most if not all ARPGs? Also you said earlier the X class shouldnt have access to certain stats (you used the example of a mage. Saying it shouldn’t be able to move fast). You straught up said “remove gold find” yeah it can be annoying to use it but it offers diverse builds. A player might farm easier content with MF or GF gear while someone who ignores those stats for defense/offense stats can farm higher difficulty content for better drops. So and so effect on crit hit already exist in many games again not a new mechanic.

I couldn’t get through the rest of the video, anyway thats just my opinion. I wont be commenting any further as threads like these just start fights lol

Please remember that the video was directed at Diablo4… the underlying concept to milestones however is something any RPG can do.

"Making players choose between MS and being able to see a mob “wind up” for a strong attack would be a flaw as both these stats are essential for ARPGs"
Seeing the big “wind up” attacks can be done through the ANIMATIONS themselves as opposed to the red glowing crap you see overlayed on the ground.

"Who is removing attributes (str,int,agi)? I personally haven’t seen a game doing that. Provide examples? Also “remove damage and have attack speed twice”. Isn’t that no different than low damage high attack speed weapons which already exist. Making it so a weapon rolls with low innate attack damage just to have 2 affixes that do the same thing would be a waste of time to program."
Diablo 4 is potentially (based on blizzcon build/interview). You missed what I was trying to convey here with the bonus affix stuff… it is to do with finding the same legendary item, it would be possible to find versions with lower normal main stat (in this case attack or defense) and there would be a bonus to another stat because of this, thus adding more choice and build possibilities. One player might want a legendary chest piece that has less defense than normal because their playstyle/defense is to not take hits in the first place. (again this is a suggestion for d4)

"The example with the “hunter” is already implemented in most if not all ARPGs? Also you said earlier the X class shouldnt have access to certain stats (you used the example of a mage. Saying it shouldn’t be able to move fast)."
Seems like you just skimmed through (I don’t blame you) as you missed my point here also. They would all have the same stats, the milestone choices themselves would differ as thematically all the characters are unique and would attack/defend in different ways if they were real. Like the move speed stuff, I wouldn’t expect a mage to be able to reach their max speed instantly (fast off the block), whereas a barbarian (who has the muscle) or a hunter with their agility could. That was more to do with character identity.

It depends on the number of enemys and how well done collision is implemented. If enemys approach you from each side and they all wind up their skills you’ll be in a pickle. Outlines of said wind up skills should always be shown and accurate because if they aren’t shown you’ll overlook a lot sooner or later.

Cool video that you’ve put a lot of thought into. I think the underlying concepts and reasoning you’re going for it great and you’ve outlined almost an entire progression system. I feel like you could design an entire passive system around stat milestones. I think D4 would do well to use it.

I know a lot of it is directed at D4. I think we’re doing most of the things that you are suggesting as important things to do. Player choice in gear with trade-offs being the catalyst for interesting decisions. Build customization through skills and character building. The milestones system is actually really good at doing something that we’re struggling a little bit with gear. It puts a “tax” on gear. It forces you to equip a minimum number of rare items. Certain slots will have uniques and sets but you’ll require a minimum number of rares to hit your breakpoints. Games like PoE and D2 do this with resistances by making getting res capped almost mandatory. As you mentioned, that’s not overly exciting and with the way our protections work and there not being a cap, it’s a little hard to use them like that. We have experimented with a couple systems to fill this role and currently, that’s what glancing blow is doing. It is something that our community has voiced as a low point in the overall design and we are working on an alternative. I think that the affinity and milestone systems are too deep for us to use without removing our passive tree. We are really happy with how the other progression systems are shaping up so we probably won’t adopt it wholesale.

Had this been pitched 2 years ago, we probably would have much more heavily considered it though.

Side note: We actually tested out how move speed acceleration feels in game and it’s terrible. Like really terrible. I thought it would be super cool and an interesting stat but all it ended up doing was making movement feel terrible until you had a ton of acceleration then it began to feel ok again. It made the first 50+ levels of the game just awful. I wish I was wrong on this one because you are right about it being more realistic.

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Wow, that quite a work you’ve done.
It cool too recall what is great about customisation.

The idea behind your video is great.
The exemple of run speed is not the best. The idea of tier behind run speed are cool, but if you your char is too slow it is not fun at all. In beta of grim dawn for example the base speed was too slow and it become a chore to level up your char.

Run speed is difficult to balance and to remove it completly won’t shock me.

For the rest, skill that evolve by invest is great. Last epoch perfect it with the skill tree.
i don’t see how to do best. Torchlight 2 try it by doing just small milestone but is was far from perfect.

Ther idea of milestone is really great, and to have to choose between multi options at each tier and that these options are differents for each class offer great custo and role play to the class.

I fear that diablo 4 will do as diablo 3 and offer this ‘tier bonus’ only by item. It’s what I understand seeing the legendary of the demo. As diablo 3, you won’t be able to make your build without the correct item… Feel bad for a casual gamer as you won’t access the gameplay you want unless you are really lucky.

In last epoch this ‘tier bonus’ are done by passive. A lot of passive are this kind of new mecanism, like tremor, or leach, or plenty of others. That give you the choise to renforce your attack or defense by classic stat or to add some layer of mecanism. I feel like the passive works well in this role.
So item is now all about to reinforce specific stat and so your build but not define the build. It is far better this way.

Last epoch is the best ARPG for custo since a long time.

If I understand well, item is use “only” too reach tier of specific stat that interest you, all tier must be mecanism, and skill must evolve with investisment.
So at level up, you win skill point and that all? And for item, you would do it the same way as last epoch.
It feel interesting, and I feel that last epoch can’t do that now but that it already get all the core that make you come to this system. It’s just two slightly different way of doing so.

The idea of affinity is great too. I love it. Good work again. That make me want even more to play to last epoch :stuck_out_tongue:

PS: Sorry for my english :frowning:

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