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Current state of attributes

You are right. In my example it would be viable to stack dexterity for crit chance bonus on a melee build. But for what purpose? You already can collect affixes on your items with crit chance and so on.

The longer I think about it the more I am convinced that LE’s system is ok. The Attributes are mainly for improving skills. So you pick your skills and build your gear around them. On top every attribute gives a defensive bonus related to the class.

The only way to answer if the systems works is to try some builds. Make a Dexterity Spellblade or an Attunemend Void Knight. I’ll definitely give it a try.

It’s not really 45 flat protection. It’s 15 for 3 out of 7 protections. You can’t add them together as they work separately.
Moreover, with how protection works, adding 15hp is exactly the same as adding 15 armor + 15 fire protection + 15 ice protection + 15 lightning protection + 15 void protection + 15 necrotic protection + 15 poison protection.
So, against the right enemies, 1 Vitality point is equivalent for survivability as 15 HP. And, in average, it’s equivalent to 6.4 HP.

Anyway, I never said the protection was not useful. I said Vitality is an extra step that is not useful.
There is no node to add 15 N/V/P protection but there are nodes to add 1 Vitality. If Vitality were removed, the nodes could just directly provide the protection.
No effective change. But a simplification by removing something that is not as useful as it should be.

Yep. That’s what I was saying. We could replace all attributes by one stat to improve skills and there wouldn’t be much differences.
It would at most require some rebalance. The other effects of the is covered by other mechanics.
Which still doesn’t mean attributes should necessarily be removed. They can be removed. But they can also be improved/reworked to be more interesting/useful.

I read everything else and I get your point but I had a toon with problems in the N/V/P resis and simply put 3 times vit on my items instead of said resistences just to relise it’s more potent. VIT is a strange attribute yes and I think there might will be some changes to it but simply removing it would be a bad thing because I’m almost sure they won’t replace EVERY node VIT is included by adding N/V/P resis just like that.

We could remove all attributes and noone would care if the loss in potential dmg was calculated on the skills and the mana costs reduced. Since we had a lot of attribute topics or deiscussions when attributes where a thing noone came up with a better or even remotely good idea how things SHOULD be done. I’m far more intrested in ideas how to make everything better rather then having the same old topic again… no offence if this might sound rude or is a totaly new thing to some people but solutions would be nice ^^.

Now I am a little bit confused.

According to the homepage (https://lastepochgame.com/faq/#resistance) the formular for damage mitigation is the following:
Mitigation = protection / (maximum health + protection)
So there is a small difference in adding 15 protection or 15 hp.

Here are 2 heroes, both with new equip:

  1. 100 hp adding 15 protection: Mitigation = 15 / (100+15) = 13%
  2. 100 hp adding 15 hp: Mitigation = 0 / (115+0) = 0%

Now lets say an enemie hits both of them with 100 damage. Lets see how much hp is left after one hit:

  1. 100 hp - 100 damage - 13% = 13 hp
  2. 115 hp - 100 damage - 0% = 15 hp

When following this formular +hp is more effective than +resistance as long as you add the same value. It is even better because #2 has 15 hp left no matter what damage type hit him. #1 has a problem when his +15 resistance came from +1 vitality because he would have died if he got hit by 100 lightning damage.

What I don’t understand is the following:
The homepage says “10 protection increases your effective health by 10 against the relevant damage type.” But this doesn’t match the formular. If you have 100 hp and add 10 resistance you gain 9% Mitigation. If you get hit by 100 damage you mitigate 9.09 damage. If you have 100 hp and 100 resistance and add 10 resistance your mitigaiton increases from 50% to 52%. After a hit with 100 damage you would have left 52.38 hp which is 2.38 more because of +10 protection.

Perhaps I am doing something wrong.

The main problem for me with all the stats is the difference in % and flat values. Recently I switched an item on my mage. I took off an item with no resistances an got an increase of +2% on all of my resistances. It took me a few minutes to recognize this was because I had +hp on the item I removed. So my max hp decreased what increased my resistances. And increased resistances sound nice at first. But if you take the example above and reduce hp you have less hp left after a hit with 100 damage nevertheless you got an increased mitigation ratio.
It is really hard to judge if the item you equip gives you an advantage over the previous item. You can’t trust the stats screen.

Maybe the damage an enemie dishes out is also dependent on your stats. In this case #1 and #2 would not have been hit with the same damage value. This is beyond my knowledge.

Resistences in this game works different to other games. To make things short: Every point you put in resistences is 1eHP more against said dmg type. You can completely ignore the % valus under resistences because those don’t server anything and could be simply not there to begin with because there are no ingame effects calculated against these % values.

so this mechanics is very confusing! it has to be simpler yet sophisticated.

You basically figured out one of the main issues with this game, putting defensive attributes on base stats. There is so much going on with this game, I can only image the DPS meter they give us is going to be wrong as it is now. And that’s not to say we generally need one. But when you have a game that has so many attributes that it’s nauseating, you get what we have now. I have been saying this from day one, simplify. This game will never attract enough population when even the hardcore people are left scratching heads.

And not to go to far off-topic. But things like throwing attack and throwing damage should just be moved to spell damage. It’s a spell, yet spell damage does nothing for it? Then you tie this stat to just one class, and it’s a mastery class at that. Weird. I feel like you guys are doing way to much to make this a math game and not something that’s fun. Any chance of getting back to that?

Hi,

So if i understand it well, in the current state of the game it’s always better to raise HP instead of any kind of protection, as HP “protect” against 7/7 damage types, anything else protect only against some damage types.

That’s correct ?

For my understanding - yes. But the hint in the FAQ on the homepage states both:

  1. mitigation = protection / (protection + max. hp)
  2. every point in protection is equal to effective hp against the damage type.

For my understanding it is not possible that both statements are true at the same time. According to @Macknum the mitigation is not being used to calculate incoming damage.

If “1 protection = 1 ehp” than you gain the same bonus from both, hp or protection.

So you don’t mitigate a % of incoming damage, instead you mitigate a fix value. If you have 50 protection and get 100 damage you lose 50 hp. If you get 50 damage you won’t lose any hp.

So when you have to choose whether you take +15 hp or +1 vitality on an item I’d choose hp because it gives ehp against all sources of damage while vitality only protects against void, necrotic and poison.

The question is if the values you can craft on an item are equal. What is the max value of a tier 1 +hp affix? Is it 15 hp or more/less? I can’t remember and can’t log in atm.

So it is not only the case that the system is very complex. There are some misleading informations in game an in the FAQ.

2 Likes

My brain hurts!

Damage mitigation in LE is simple but complexe to understand.
I like the notion of survivability. It’s easier with it to understand how it works.

Imagine you have A and B that each have 100HP and no protection.
Both take 1 hit for 100 fire damage.
They each went from 100HP (100% HP) to 0HP (0% HP).

Now, A slots an item to get 100HP while B slots an item to get 100 Fire protection.
Both take 1 hit for 100 fire damage.
A goes from 200HP (100% HP) to 100 HP (50% HP) as there is still no mitigation.
B goes from 100HP (100% HP) to 50 HP (50% HP) because of mitigation (100/(100+100)=50% mitigation against fire).
Both loose half there life. Both lose completely there life with 2 hits. Both have the same survivability.

Another way to see mitigation, is there is HP that is real HP and Protection that is virtual HP.
Damage is divided between real and virtual HP proportionaly.
If there is 70% real and 30% virtual HP (for exemple 700HP and 300 Fire protection), 70% of damage is dealt to real HP and 30% of damage is dealt to virtual HP (and so does nothing, is mitigated).

If we increase that a lot, now A has 1000HP and B has 100HP and 900 Fire Protection.
With 1 hit for 100 fire damage, A has 900HP remaining (90%) and B has 90HP remaining (90%).
And both needs 10 hits to die.

If we had C that has 500HP and 500 Fire protection, 1 hit for 100 fire damage leaves him at 450HP (90%) and 10 hits kills him.
They all have the same survivability against fire.

But if they are hit with ice damage, B dies in 1 hit, C dies in 5 hits and A dies in 10 hits.
HP and armour/protection have the same effect but HP is stronger as it is universal. Even more as affixes slots are limited in numbers.

The only way to balance that is by having sources of armour/protection 7 times stronger than HP.
But HP, contrary to armour/protection, has additive AND multiplicative sources.
It’s not easy to compare correctly.

EDIT: I also forgot that we also need to take into account ways to regenerate health that are more effective with lower life, making mitigation stronger.

6 Likes

Thank you for this nice explanation. Seems I got confused by the term “effective hp”.

I also compared the absolute amount of hp left after 1 hit. But according to your example the absolute value doesn’t matter because the number of hits till death are the same.

So I take this information with me:

  • As long as the sum of protection + hp has the same value the survivability (number of hits needed to die) is exactly the same
  • Every increase of the sum of protection + hp is an improvement of survivability - no matter what the mitigation % on the stats screen is telling me.

That stats screen of LE is nice to have but it needs a manual to understand what those numbers mean that are displayed. :confounded:

It confuses me that sometimes +% is added directly (glancing blow chance) and sometimes is is multiplied with a basic value (dodge rating). As long as there is a rating shown I can comprehend. But I don’t understand where the crit chance is coming from. I am increasing my crit chance by 10% on my passive tree and the stats screen goes +1% from 6% to 7%. So I am not increasing my crit chance by 10%. I am increasing my crit chance by 10% of my actual crit chance of 6%. So there must be a crit rating somewhere that is not shown. :exploding_head:

Sorry for the occupation of this thread. This was not 100% on topic. But I feel a lot wiser now. :roll_eyes::yum:

Simple for crit :wink:

Added crit is additive, increased crit is a multiplyer. You see it nicely if you have shards for crafting and look at the tooltips like your life is depending on it ^^.

Predur sums it up nicely for the resistences.

:face_with_hand_over_mouth: Game changer. Might as well just stack HP and forget about prots

That’s the base crit chance. For melee it’s 5% unless you’re adding in some base crit somewhere (such as some weapons add base crit, many skills add base crit). So your 10% increased crit is adding <1% crit (rounding, probably 0.5%) increasing it from (rounded down to) 6% to (rounded up to) 7%.

If you see a big crit modifier (eg, +10% or 50%), it’s probably increased rather than adding to your base crit. If it’s a small number (eg, +1%) it’s probably adding in to the base crit chance.

The downside of going with pure health as a defence is that healing skills or leech will take longer to heal you to full, so while a pure hp & hp/protections might take the same % of hp as damage on the first hit, the hp/protections character will heal up faster from skills or leech so are more likely to have more hp for subsequent hits (assuming the same initial ehp).

This is only assuming you need to be topped off, but you don’t really need to be.

Against trash, probably, against bosses or rares that are arround to get more than one hit on you your ability to regain your hp is beneficial.

Yeah while resis increase your eHP you should’nt forget about one thing: You don’t need to reg your resi stats because those are always there. Always just get enough HP so you don’t get oneshot and build up resis then.

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