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Why penetrations are pretty much useless late game, on high health enemies


#1

So… for a few months I have been working on/off on Google spreadsheets and learning a lot of math and coding in spreadsheets. It’s been interesting and I have shared my findings on certain streams, such as on Lonestar McFluffins stream on several occasions.

This week I reworked a lot of the coding, after learning a bit of algebra and I can now use the spreadsheet for so many things. For now it doesn’t include block protection/armour calculations, but it will soon enough.

What I’m getting at is this spreadsheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1bWP1WWa8JG1Tn4C9_jlPymtnUWPqGW8dwcCWymOQdOI/edit?usp=sharing

I can use it for both enemies AND someone’s character. It’s useful for enemies and seeing what effects protections vs penetrations have on damage output/taken. It is also possible to add in shock stacks. You can also see stun chance and how that is affected by certain things.

Why penetration is useless…

  • Example 1:
    https://imgur.com/a/wJomfSd
    A 10k health enemy is not uncommon late game, and I think bosses have a lot more.
    So if we deal 1000 phys dmg and we have 200 armour shred, which is something you can get on certain skills. But you probably won’t get a lot more than that, unless you really focus on it.
    This means our dmg is increased by 2%, with some investment into armour shred, and that is an enemy with only 10k health. That’s already very underwhelming.

  • Example 2:
    https://imgur.com/a/ilNtOT5
    If we increase the mob health to let’s say 50k health but same dmg and armour shred, the dmg increase is only a 0.4%. So let’s increase our dmg and armour shred a bit.

  • Example 3:
    https://imgur.com/a/BwH1L8f
    Here we do a much bigger hit, with double the armour shred, but out dmg is only increased by 0.79%, with 400 armour shred, which is quite a bit.

  • Example 4:
    https://imgur.com/a/ZKx5km7
    Even if we go for a lot of shock + shock effectiveness investment, the issue is still the same. It doesn’t really do anything later on.

So with with these examples, it seems like the effect of penetrations is really lacking some power late game, when the enemies have a lot of health. I don’t know how this could be improved, but something needs to be done as to not make a part of the game obsolete, unless that is your idea. I hope not, since there is a lot of penetration nodes all around the passive skill trees and skill tree nodes. Maybe the calculations of how these work could be changed. Otherwise the numbers of penetrations need to increase a lot later on, but that would be a silly way to do it and the numbers would have to be really big. I wouldn’t like that. So I think there is something “wrong” with the way diminishing returns on penetration are calculated compared to monster health.

Could the calculations take into account how hard the hit is? Like some way of increasing the penetration compared to the dmg dealt. The calculations could also take a smaller portion into account, when calculating. So maybe instead of max health, it is only 50% or 25% health. Then the penetration would have a larger effect.

I hope this is helpful and I will be doing something similar for both stun and freeze.


#2

As usual and since I was there for most of the discussion. Just posting to support And show that I agree.


#3

I agree.

I still think the best solution is to have a low base health value that pen scales against that then gets multiplied by a massive increased hp value.


#4

100% agree. It just doesn’t scale right now in any way though would ever make me take those nodes. Would love to see that change so that the stat becomes a viable option for builds!


#5

Mark of Death (30%+20%) - poison Pen doesn’t even notably increase damage


#6

Just to say i’m agree


#7

I was making a skeleton summoner that stacked all the ways of armor stripping I could find, guess thats not going anywhere :frowning:


#8

Yea I’m sorry D: Just go for raw damage


#9

There are several “numbers” that doesn’t scale correctly. That are kinda ok at start but are quite ineffective later.

For example, I started a thread in january to talk about the healing effect on skills or some passives nodes that gives a few hp, often with a low chance to occur (at least, penetration is always there). They are not really worth the investment at start, when you have a little more than 100hp and do next to nothing later, when you have more hp.
But there wasn’t much response to my thread. :frowning:

More things should work as a percentage. Or have a way to improve them globaly.


#10

You’re very right!
And with all these feedback posts, the devs will have a lot to look at and think about, on how to rework or improve those mechanics. So maybe we don’t get a response right away, - they could also just be focused on other stuff - but most, if not all, of our posts get noticed by someone :smiley: So keep the feedback coming. Everything helps. Can you link me to that old post? I’d like to see it.

For sure. Some mechanics scale better than others.


#11

It was this thread: Flat heal nodes on skills :wink:


#12

Thanks! I mean it had plenty of comments from other people, but the comments are closed now since it’s old. We also can’t expect every post to get replies from the devs. But they still see them. I agree that later on the flat health gain on hit mostly falls off late game and is taken over by leech in many cases.


#13

I wasn’t talking only about the devs. There weren’t a lot of reactions from players. A few replies and that’s all.


#14

Tbh. Outside of a few core players who are very active and involved in the development of the game at this early stage, I don’t think we can really expect robust and engaging conversations with the community at this point. Several of the suggestions I had also went completely silent. But it is what it is at this point.

So to those who are providing feedback and suggestions at this stage, thank you for doing what you do. So that the game can be so much better for the rest of us down the road :clinking_glasses:


#15

We had more feedback and communication from the devs then other dev studios ever offered O.o. On top of that those guys a pretty honest and don’t hide behind politicly correct speeches that leave people behind with more questions then answers.


#16

I’m not talking about the devs. I’m responding to the observations that very few players are discussing the game. And that the (player) community is very small at the moment because of the development stage the game is in now.


#17

Discord is the way to go for this because discord people think very highly of themselfs and make fun about ppl who use forums or steam discussion. They only take reddit for another viable source ^^. So if you want a more living discussion go to the discord channel I always found someone there to discuss stuff with or game mechanics ^^.


#18

I disagree though. Discord is amazing sure, and it has more of the community. But more in depth discussions tend to happen on the forums, I feel like the more dedicated people go here and discuss in more detail. It is also here most of the builds are shared, which often start discussions and questions. This is at least how it is with the Last Epoch community, Idk about others. It is very quick and nice to discuss mechanics in the Discord. On here people don’t have to be on at the same time, so they can discuss things over a period of time, on their own terms. When the Discord is busy, you will have to scroll up and you can lose track of discussions or miss them entirely. Here you can see the records, comments and posts and easily find what you’re looking for or start a new discussion.
It is also easier for the devs to follow discussions and join in on the forums, about bugs, feedback or suggestions. So I use the Discord and forums quite differently now.


#19

Hey guys, sorry if we don’t respond at times. The analysis that @ReimerhArts has provided is much appreciated and we’ve actually already had a small discussion on it internally. We acknowledge that some stats aren’t scaling well late game, that it is a problem, and we have some ideas that aren’t ready to be discussed yet publicly.

I’ll ask the team to acknowledge these threads more especially if we even bring it up as an internal meeting topic. Thanks again for the feedback guys!


#20

Thanks a lot! :smiley:

Happy to provide in depth feedback and it’s exciting to hear that these are being discussed internally.