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Which of these 2 staffs are better?

I have a sentinel, forge guard, using skills: abyssal echoes (DoT), vengeance, volatile reversal and devouring orb. boardman21 build.

difference between the 2 staffs. one has 310 % DoT and the other has 120 to spell dmg, when i hit the dummy in training camp, the Spell dmg one shows me higher numbers, also over time? so i am not sure, if DoT is not shown there or its just not good. anyway i have linked both staffs. also feel free to let me know if there are other things i am missing on the staff. "the freeze suffix is just random roll from before, i didn’t try to get that. I dont like weapon with meele attack speed, since they often dont have extra abilities i use.


The dots (abyssal echoes) show us as repeating numbers for the duration of the skill, it’ll be easier to see if you just use one abyssal echoes and watch it as it runs it’s course. Damage is +/- 25% so you’ll need a decent sample to see the difference. But generally go with the one that gives you the most damage.

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Staff No.2 should be better in theory(because of the implicit).
Adaptive Spell Damage does not affect DoT’s as far as i know, it’s just applies to damage “on hit”
I don’t have much experience with DoT builds myself, but when testing damage nubmers always test on test dummies for a adequat amount of time.

After you tested further and still end with the result that staff 1 is stronger i would probably think that the implicit might be bugged?

Tbh i have never ever used staves in this game xD

As between the two, I’d use staff #2 because of its higher melee damage base. When I first started playing the game, I tried Boardman21’s old Abyssal Echoes build and thought stacking void damage was the way to go offensively – it was rough. I’ve since learned that it’s best at helping clear trash and stacking the global damage modifer so Vengeance (or Smite if you use that) hits harder. You’re going to be hurting for single target DPS if you rely entirely on Abyssal Echoes stacking when you reach higher end content.

While not great, staff #2 gives you a 61 damage base to work with for Vengeance. Though, I’d recommend checking out Boardman21’s guide that adapts LizardIRL’s Turbo Vengeance build and incorporate some elements of that into your play so you can see the balance between melee damage and void damage (I prefer ignoring the void damage component myself and just go straight Vengeance).

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Thanks very good comment, i have 4 questions though, hehe. 1. what is the build where boardman adapts lizardirls turbo vengeance build? i cant find it. 2. what do you personally think is better, vengeance or smite? 3. i have a lot of items where i added “void damage” or echoes over time damage, but should go with straight physical dmg instead like fighting chance gloves? 4. what is your highest arena/monolith? thanks

Cant comment much on No.1 since i despite reading or using any form of guides.

No 2. : Personally i did little testing with smite itselfs, but it never felt good as a “main damage source” when self casted. There are nice trigger/procs though. So i would say Vengeance is better. But also don’t forget about Rive, also a very cool skill mechanically and it’s skill tree is very intersting.

No.3 : That depend on what skill you are using. With “echoes over time damage” you are refering to void damage over time or increased damage if a skill recently echoed? Both on Idols? From my experience anything damage over time related needs to be fully commited, so you either do a fully damage over time build and try to scale all the DoT’s up, or you don’t bother with DoT’s at all. Generally you need to have a good mix of “flat added” damage and % icnreases for maximum potential.

The unqiues gloves you suggested are just a low/midlevel alternative item. They have very low stats comapre to a medicore rare item. It should be very easy to find and craft a rare item that is much stronger. Especailly since Gloves have Attack or Cast Speed Affixes, which are very good for dps in almost all builds that use some kind of sustained skill.

If you are going for void damage or physical damage again depends on the skill you are going for. If all your questions in here were related to your build i am guessing you should go for Damage Over Time, Void Damage and Spell Damage

No. 4 : With my current main character, a Melee Harvest Lich i am atm at the levle 100 timeline Echoe 72, which already is very tough sometimes. My build scales very well with my weapon and i do need to find a better one to push considerably higher than that.

Havn’t dabbled in MoF with other chars yet, since i am level like 100 cahrs at the same time lol.

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  2. Vengeance is the main source of damage, but this build uses Smite for the attack speed, movement and blind. Personally, being more familiar with Devouring Orb, subbed Smite out for DO so I could get the extra resistances/global damage/movement speed – since my gear isn’t quite as good as Boardman/Lizard. But, I would be interested in trying it with Smite.

  3. You want a mix of +damage (it doesn’t really matter whether its melee/lightning/cold/void/fire, though fire is great because it can syngery with Ring of Shields buff if you prefer putting points into the +15% fire damage rather than duration, and %melee damage. The +damage raises the base and the % works off of the base as I understand it. But, the real heart and soul of this build is the +% damage to Vengeance Idols. I would collect 2-4 of those in the 40-50% range before running this build.

  4. My character is level 73, and I just killed Rahyeh, The Black Sun last night (level 68 MoF boss) and I’ve been able to use this build to get to wave 160 of the current iteration of Arena.

Hope this helps!

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really great answers everyone, i will look deeper into this and work out a better build, great game, great community!

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Unfortunately the “increased damage for 4s after a skill echoes” idols are bugged and don’t work.


thanks i didnt know that.

Unfortunately the “increased damage for 4s after a skill echoes” idols are bugged and don’t work.

Is there a list anywhere of current known bugs or a published bug tracker?

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No, I don’t believe there is, unfortunately. But if you post a bug in the bug forum & I remember seeing something like it I’ll let you know. :wink:

EDIT: nr2 for everything as adaptative spell damage applies to everything including abyssal echos dot

You would think that from the implicits, but it depends on how much “increased damage” the OP already has.

The second staff has a net 177% more increased damage for void dots. Staff 1 has 56 adaptive compared to 34 for the second (65% more, net 22 higher). So depending on the spell’s added damage effectiveness if (22*added damage effectiveness) is more than (177 / sum of increased from gear and passives) then the second staff would be better even for a dot or void dot spell.

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You’re right! I just tested it and adaptative applies also to Abyssal Echos dot :open_mouth:
And since i was there i tested the ~10% inc abyssal decay duration idols and they don’t work…