The new defence system and its future

[talkinkorean]

You’re not making any sense. Each percent is worth 100 damage because the base (10,000 damage) is constant.

And I don’t think I said anything about monsters dealing 4% more damage. I said 4% at earlier levels aren’t as impactful as 4% at later levels (because the base number is higher.) There’s nothing to be “wrong” when I didn’t make that statement. Monsters don’t ever deal more damage in relation to your resists. A monster dealing 1000 damage will always deal 1000 damage. What resistances do is reduce the incoming damage by a percentage. 1% of 1000 is 10 no matter what. The 4% I’m talking about is the difference in the damage applied to your HP as your resist goes up or down by 1%. If I have 1000 hp and I take 250 damage at 75% resist and take 260 damage at 74%, the damage taken increased by 10. The difference between 250 and 260 is 4%.

Incoming damage: 1000
75% resist: 250 damage taken
74% resist: 260 damage taken
Increase of incoming damage because of the difference in resist values: 10
10/1000 = 1%
(|250 - 260|)/250 = 10/250 = .04 = 4%

I’m ok with debating opinions, but it’s frustrating when people don’t understand basic math and argue their points based on what they don’t understand. It’s doubly frustrating when you put words in my mouth and proceed to tell me I’m wrong.

[darkdeal]

I do understand the math of it. You are being disingenuous with your arguments though. It is purposefully meant to deceive. Every percentage point of resist was worth the same as any other percentage point of resist. To claim that the difference between 74% and 75% is somehow greater than the difference between 25% and 24% is just wrong.

Your EXACT arguments about the standard resist systems in games is that being 1% below cap is a 4% increase in damage. That is false framing. The monsters aren’t dealing any more damage than they otherwise would. What is changing is the amount mitigated. You mitigate 1% less.

The entire point of my arguing against your position is in defense of the standard percentage based resistance systems. Which I believe to be better than the current LE system with built in penetration.

In this LE system, if you aren’t res capped, you actual DO take increased damage as the penetration system puts your resists into negative.

So while resistances in this game are not as impactful in LE as they are in other games when it comes to mitigating damage, the fact that the game innately has penetration makes resistances feel mandatory just to not be put into negatives and take increased damage. The LE system has achieved almost a paradoxical effect of being less useful but still “mandatory”. Some of that is blamed on the ease of reaching the cap though.

[Llama8]

@darkdeal

I do understand the math of it. You are being disingenuous with your arguments though. It is purposefully meant to deceive. Every percentage point of resist was worth the same as any other percentage point of resist. To claim that the difference between 74% and 75% is somehow greater than the difference between 25% and 24% is just wrong.

TalkinKorean is not being disingenuous, nor is his argument purposefully meant to deceive.

As you can see, going from 75% down to 74% reisist (without the area level penetration) increases the damage you take from 25 to 26 which is a 4% increase. Going from 25% down to 24% resist (without area level penetration) increases the damage you take from 75 to 76, which is a 1% increase.

This is simple maths.

With area level penetration, however, it’s a very different story…

In both cases, going down by 1% resist increases the damage you take by 1, which is a 1% increase. Except in the 25% → 24% example you’re also taking 50% more than in the 75% → 74% example.

If you don’t like the concept of area level penetration, that’s entirely your perogative & I’m not going to argue against it. But as I understand it the area level penetration system was to solve the problem in the first example. Going from 75% (capped) to 74% resist results in a 4% increase in the amount of damage you take compared to being capped.

Nobody’s saying it’s a perfect system, but it does solve that particular issue.

Your EXACT arguments about the standard resist systems in games is that being 1% below cap is a 4% increase in damage. That is false framing.

It’s not false framing, it’s what’s actually happening compared to being at cap.

What is changing is the amount mitigated. You mitigate 1% less.

Yes, and that 1% less is a 4% increase compared to the higher amount of mitigation. TalkinKorean never said the mobs were doing more damage.

The entire point of my arguing against your position is in defense of the standard percentage based resistance systems. Which I believe to be better than the current LE system with built in penetration.

You can believe whatever you wish, but the maths doesn’t lie.

In this LE system, if you aren’t res capped, you actual DO take increased damage as the penetration system puts your resists into negative.

Yes, but the amount of damage you take extra is the amount of resist you’re under cap. If you’re 1% under cap, you take 1% more damage compared to being at cap.

[darkdeal]

Your math isn’t wrong, but the perspective is. The reason it looks different with the penetration system is because it is shifting the context. All of the arguments about penetration going into negatives uses the same “from zero” point of view that I have been arguing. Only when considering resist systems without penetration people keep shifting the arguments away from zero to 100% as if that is the default. The default is zero no matter which way you are going.

It is only 4% more if you are taking it from the point of view of the damage being dealt from the mob as if the “base” is from 100% resist. That is why I said it is false framing.

In other words, all the maths from the people on the opposition are arguing the percentages based on post mitigation numbers.

All you have to do is write it all out on a number line.

-100======-75%=======0========75%=======100%

Arguments about 4% more damage are saying that from the 100% damage prevented side, 74% resist takes 4% more damage than the 75%.

Yet when arguing about penetration, the arguments by people are from the 0 starting point.

Either both arguments should be from the zero start point, or both arguments should be from the opposite ends. Resists are capped at 75, but so is penetration.

Take for example,. The player has no resist. The monster is missing out on 4% more damage because he doesn’t have 75% penetration. Given a 100 damage base hit, 100% pen would be 200 damage (Note this is my point. Talkin is arguing from the 100% resist side). So a monster with 75% pen would deal 25 damage less than 200. A monster with 74% pen would deal 26 less damage. Look! 4%!

If that seems absurd, that is exactly my point about the other side of the line graph.

It is 2 sides of the same coin. Mitigation vs damage dealt. Both sides add up to 100%. Since there is no such thing as 100% penetration or 100% resist, it is just easier to base all comparisons from the mitigation side, which has the start point at 0.
74% resist isn’t monsters dealing 4% more damage, or the player taking 4% more damage. It is the player mitigating 1% less of the total damage.

[XLVI_carpo]

I really think you guys should take a break from all those numbers and really play the game.

Honestly I don’t care about all that math. EHG should keep their formula secret and don’t tell anybody. I can’t remember giving a fuck about the math behind the game when I played D2 or Sacred.

Mechanics that people understand are:

• There are stats on items
• Higher numbers = better
• Sometimes lower numbers = better

For me personally there’s no need to debate about the relative increase in damage mitigation regarding different game mechanics. I do understand what EHG did with the pen. And for me it’s important how it feels.

I don’t want to devalue anything that got posted about the math. I just think we should focus more on the actual result ingame than the math behind it. Let EHG solve that. Just give them the direction and the finish photo.

Cheers guys

[Llama8]

But there’s someone on the and they’re wrong! The HORROR!

[talkinkorean]

It’s funny. You said you understand the math. And you proceed to demonstrate how you really don’t understand.

@darkdeal

I do understand the math of it. You are being disingenuous with your arguments though. It is purposefully meant to deceive. Every percentage point of resist was worth the same as any other percentage point of resist. To claim that the difference between 74% and 75% is somehow greater than the difference between 25% and 24% is just wrong.

Go quote me where I said the difference between 74% and 75% is greater than between 24% and 25%. I’ll wait. Here I’ll quote myself for you on what I said:

@talkinkorean

Every point of resistance gives you 4% reduction in damage no matter what the assumption is.

@talkinkorean

After understanding the penetration system I can’t see myself going back to the old system of 1% resist = 4% damage reduction.

@talkinkorean

If 1% resist gives me 4% damage reduction, to hell with the other stats, I’m going to get that 1% resist.

@talkinkorean

The penetration scaling is not there to force people to waste slots on resists. I don’t know why people can’t understand the penetration system. It’s there so each percent of damage reduction is what it states it is. You increase your resistance by 1%, you take 1% less damage, not 4%. Without penetration and under the traditional system, you ARE forced to waste slots on resists because for each percent of resist you’re missing, you’re taking a higher percentage of damage. 1% missing and you take 4% more damage. 25% missing and you take 100% more damage. 75% missing and you take 300% more damage. It’s very simple, basic math and to say otherwise flies against what the math tells us.

The only part that even reeks of what you’re accusing me of is below and I’ll concede that it was misspoken and technically erroneous. But never was that purposely misleading.

@talkinkorean

I personally think the area penetration idea is brilliant. Every point of resist is equal in value. Every percent you add is another percent of damage reduction. Nothing wonky like taking double damage because you’re only 25% below max resist.

@darkdeal

Your EXACT arguments about the standard resist systems in games is that being 1% below cap is a 4% increase in damage. That is false framing. The monsters aren’t dealing any more damage than they otherwise would. What is changing is the amount mitigated. You mitigate 1% less.

My exact argument is being 1% below is an increase of 4% damage taken. At this point you’re really nitpicking - yes I wasn’t explicit saying damage taken but I assumed people were intelligent enough to understand that. Apparently not. You mitigate 1% less but the entire basis of disagreement is about damage taken, not damage dealt. Because if the argument is about damage dealt then area penetration does jack shit to differentiate whether the game has penetration or not. 1% resist will always reduce the absolute value of the damage incoming by 1% because 1% of x damage will always be 1% of x damage. Here I’ll quote myself again for you:

@talkinkorean

And I don’t think I said anything about monsters dealing 4% more damage. I said 4% at earlier levels aren’t as impactful as 4% at later levels (because the base number is higher.) There’s nothing to be “wrong” when I didn’t make that statement. Monsters don’t ever deal more damage in relation to your resists. A monster dealing 1000 damage will always deal 1000 damage. What resistances do is reduce the incoming damage by a percentage. 1% of 1000 is 10 no matter what. The 4% I’m talking about is the difference in the damage applied to your HP as your resist goes up or down by 1%. If I have 1000 hp and I take 250 damage at 75% resist and take 260 damage at 74%, the damage taken increased by 10. The difference between 250 and 260 is 4%.

Incoming damage: 1000
75% resist: 250 damage taken
74% resist: 260 damage taken
Increase of incoming damage because of the difference in resist values: 10
10/1000 = 1%
(|250 - 260|)/250 = 10/250 = .04 = 4%

@darkdeal

In this LE system, if you aren’t res capped, you actual DO take increased damage as the penetration system puts your resists into negative.

No it does not. That’s why I keep telling you that you don’t understand the math. How in the world are you still arguing about this when we’ve given you multiple examples and basic math lessons? All things being equal (incoming damage) you reduce the same amount of incoming damage. Whether you’re below or above the cap, the incoming damage is always reduced by a set percentage. 5% resist will reduce 1000 damage to 950. -5% resist will increase your damage taken to 1050. It’s an absolute value. So yes while you’re technically right, consider what LE said when introducing penetration system:

@Trasochi

Damage dealt by all enemies has been reduced across the board with this new scaling in mind.

By introducing area penetration, they reduced damage across the board AND increased base HP. You don’t like the concept, but I’m fine with it since it creates a situation (conceptually) where you’re not taking 100% increased damage just being 25% below the cap. Being 25% below the cap means taking 25% more damage. That is factually correct and mathematically irrefutable.

@darkdeal

So while resistances in this game are not as impactful in LE as they are in other games when it comes to mitigating damage, the fact that the game innately has penetration makes resistances feel mandatory just to not be put into negatives and take increased damage. The LE system has achieved almost a paradoxical effect of being less useful but still “mandatory”. Some of that is blamed on the ease of reaching the cap though.

Being put in the negative increases the same amount of incoming damage. So does being above 0. Monster deals 1000 damage. Going from 20% to 10% increases incoming damage by 100. Going from 0% to -10% increases incoming damage by 100. Going from -75% to -65% increases incoming damage by 100. Being in the negative doesn’t inherently make you take more damage. Going from one point in the number line to another point in the line going left increases damage taken. It’s an absolute number regardless of positive or negative. |20 - 10| is the same is |-20 - -10|.

@XLVI_carpo

I really think you guys should take a break from all those numbers and really play the game.

I would if I could having kids isn’t conducive to playing what you want to play.

[XLVI_carpo]

@talkinkorean

I would if I could having kids isn’t conducive to playing what you want to play.

Defenitely. I know exactly what you’re talking about

[darkdeal]

It isn’t specifically math you are messing up. It is the logic. I have gone through it every way I can think of. You just don’t understand. Sorry.

[talkinkorean]

When you’re talking about a system based on math, you kind of have to understand the math. If math is not the issue then I suggest you don’t try to back up your thoughts using math. My logic is grounded on the math behind the system. My rebuttal to your statements is based on math. Your statements are fundamentally wrong when you understand the numbers.

[Shrukn]

I didn’t know the monsters get Penetration scaling on their levels as I haven’t played in a while

That’s utterly ridiculous though and may as well not even have resistances at all

[talkinkorean]

I think what can be agreed upon is that people have preconceived notions on resist penetration. Not everyone is going to bother trying to understand how it works so it creates a situation like what we’re seeing right now. I really think this is a rare instance where people don’t really need to know the hidden mechanics. Regardless of penetration, each point of resist will always reduce incoming damage by it’s stated percentage.

[Sarno]

While the discussion is valuable, it doesn’t benefit from a few people in entrenched positions arguing the other is wrong. Let’s put this one on ice and get back to it later.

[LokiGoC]

For myself, being an ARPG veteran, this switch was amazing because it meant I didn’t have to relearn an entirely new system and took the burden of learning even more systems off my shoulders.

From what I can see it was a smart choice too, when you have a singular type of defence (glancing blow) that is 100% necessary for every single build then it lacks variety and needs to change. But honestly the only thing that’s changed for me is that instead of protections that really had no cap, resistances being capped at 75% means I have a ceiling to stop at and not have to worry about taking as much as I can possibly fit in my build. I like that limit because it leaves room to gear for other options, creating more variety in builds and gearing now.

I get this is just my personal experience, but I never really liked how essential GB felt, like how crit avoidance has become the new GB (imo) really. But having a resistance cap leaves a lot more room for taking other affixes and maxing out res with just a few items which means you can take those special class only affixes on your chest/head armour instead of needing that location for GB/Protections. This change only made things easier and brought more variety from what I can see, and how I’ve felt playing almost every day since the change.

It’s even made crafting less punishing along with the amazing changes they made to that as well, now if an item fractures before you capped out your res you can likely cap it on another item, and you’re not left struggling because your item cracked at low tier GB or something. Every way I look at it, this new defence system has made things better across the board, at least for me. Better crafting, more options in terms of gearing (I feel better taking a unique in my build now too), easier to understand for newer players, or even veterans like me that are used to the same system from other games and appreciate that it’s an effective system, tried and true as they say.

Again, the only changes I see, is the loss of GB being an essential take (which was bad, and may have just moved over to crit avoidance anyway) and the protections (now resistances) actually have a cap, meaning that there is now a whole bunch more room for other affixes. I don’t feel bad taking the unique class affixes now, or taking a unique item or two in my build. I don’t have to max out GB before I can start taking whatever I like on my gear. Hell I might even go a dodge build now (never touched it before, no class has synergies with it yet, til Rogue is released I assume) now that there’s more space for affixes on items.

The things you say you used to be able to do but are lost now, are still the same things I’m doing now, but with greater ease and less stress. I have a glass cannon build still, I have a bruiser type build, I have a block based build, I have a pure tank build (same as the block based build). I still have all those things and even more. I now have a Spellblade that generates ward so fast he is basically a tank, but has like 50% res. The options are endless now, whereas I felt locked into stuff before, namely GB and stacking protections infinitely with no end in sight for them. Now I’m free to take HP if I want it, or again, the unique affixes that I ignored before for the sake of GB/Protections, which was boring as sin before. I really think it’s improved the game ten-fold for me, and opened up variety in multiple ways for me as well. Maybe take a wider look at the whole scope of the changes? I feel like it’s done a lot more benefit for the game that you may be missing at the moment

[Llama8]

I agree with the vast majority of your post except the bit about crit avoidance. It is just as necessary now as it was before the resists rework in 0.7.10. I’ve always tried to cap it but now that’s easy what with Woven Flesh giving 100% crit avoidance.

[LokiGoC]

Ah fair enough, I never really bothered with it and kinda just picked it up where I could, as glancing blow already mitigated so much damage. When the changes got rid of Glancing Blow it naturally moved over to Crit Avoidance (for me at least) as the only other stat similar to GB that could avoid one-shots, per-se.

I mean yeah, Woven Flesh makes that easy to begin with, but eventually you’ll want a different chest piece for some builds meaning you eventually have to gear for crit avoidance, making it a pretty essential stat now. Well, it’s at least sky rocketed in priority for me, personally.

If it was already a guaranteed need to 100% cap it for people before the changes, however, I think it still suffers from the same issue as GB, where when something is that essential to any build ever made, it becomes stale. I guess the same could be said for resistances though, when looking at it that way. But maybe that’s because I come from other games where resistances is the baseline and something like crit avoidance is hard to get, compared to here where they are both baseline, together.

Honestly if there was a way to get crit avoidance without having to use up affix slots I’d be happy, as there is some cool ones out there that can’t be used due to needing crit avoidance. That or reduce the frequency or damage of monster/enemy crits so that it isn’t an essential must take. I feel like having resistances be a must take is pretty standard, but to have more defensive stats that are a must take on top of that starts limiting build variety.

Though, again, that probably comes from my experience in other games and wanting that familiar playstyle here. But I feel like the less that is a must take the better, though you have to have at least one thing that is and I feel resistances is a good one as that’s the standard most people are used to, or if brand new to the genre, is easy to learn. Take Grim Dawn for example (I use it a lot as an example, I know, but it’s the reason I’m even calling myself a veteran of the genre lol), capping resistances is the base line for any build, and then on top of that you can take other forms of one-shot protection in the form of abilities and items, and other layers of defence like damage reduction in multiple forms. After capping resistances, the world of defences is your oyster, but here you have to cap resistances, then cap crit avoidance, then it’s your oyster lol.

In the end though, I’m much happier with where it is now, after the changes, and will be fine if they keep it this way for good, but doesn’t mean I don’t have thoughts on it haha.

[Strannik]

Hm, I wonder if next patch will bring to us changes in defence system …