Long term feedback and hopes for the future

[Dobster]

First off can I start by saying that I really enjoy last Epoch and by no means want to sound really negative towards the game. I’m going to attempt to give some constructive feedback on my time playing over the last few years.

I came across this game a few years ago whilst on my endless search for a game to replace sacred 1 & 2. Instantly it felt like this could be the one I’d been looking for. A unique style and quirky skills that you could do some crazy stuff with and try and create the character that you wanted. One of the other attactions of Sacred was that you could travel anywhere in the world as it was completly open world. Last Epoch didn’t offer the open world feel but I hoped as development went on that the game would go down that path.

As time has gone on I can’t help but feel that the game is moving away from what I hoped it would become. Don’t get me wrong, I still really enjoy playing but the unique and quirky design is being lessened with every patch. The early design ideas are slowly being removed one by one in favor of following the other big games in the genre. I can understand that a small team may not want to take risks but on the other hand please don’t follow the pack and lose what makes you stand out. Don’t be scared to go in your own direction.

The new skills being added feel similar to skills in other games and the resistance rework is now pretty much the same as PoE. The class passive tree’s feel far more restricted now compared to earlier versions and push you in a direction rather than let you try crazy things. I really feel that the passive tree’s need far more varied bonuses on them to allow more builds to open up. Coming up with a new build idea just to find that none of the passives will do anything for you doesn’t feel good. Skill tree’s also seem to have too many negative effects to every positive. I want to feel powerful without having such huge trade-offs.

If the devs do happen to read this, please don’t make this into another PoE. LE has so much potential and you need to stick to your guns and head in your own direction and take some risks. I know it’s going to be good and I’ll play the hell out of it but I can’t help feeling you might be playing it a little too safe.

[Heavy]

I still think LE has more than enough “uniqueness” to stand out. Yes they definitely streamlined some things, but i hope that’s just for the better, so they can concentrate what LE really makes stand out: Skill Trees.

The open world thing doesn’t bother me at all personally. so i have no opinion about that.

I just wanted to touch one some things

@Dobster

The new skills being added feel similar to skills in other games

Not sure about which skills you are talking, but to name some of the “newer” skills: “Flame Reave” and “Infernal Shade” are both pretty cool and i don’t know much simialr ot them. And even if a skill is baseline similar to other similar games skills, the Skill Tree is what makes them so unique and customizable.

Also one of the relatively new skills “Death Seal” is one of the most unique and coolest skills i have ever seen in any game. It’s nit just a gimmick, but has actualy really good depth to build around.

@Dobster

the resistance rework is now pretty much the same as PoE.

They streamlined the resistance system, but made it waaaaay less punishing than PoE or GD for example, which leads to more possibly defensive build variety in a optimal scenario.

We are not yet at this optimal scenario. Itemization is not diverse enough yet, but i hope we will get there. But while being similar as a base system, i do like the LE’s spin on it very much.

@Dobster

The class passive tree’s feel far more restricted now compared to earlier versions and push you in a direction rather than let you try crazy things. I really feel that the passive tree’s need far more varied bonuses on them to allow more builds to open up. Coming up with a new build idea just to find that none of the passives will do anything for you doesn’t feel good.

I agree on the passive Trees, but the newly reworked Spellblade and Forge Guard Passive Tress are actually really nice. All of the other Classes passive trees are very old and will probably get overhauled too.

@Dobster

Skill tree’s also seem to have too many negative effects to every positive. I want to feel powerful without having such huge trade-offs.

Not really sure what you mean exactly. I mean yes there are some nodes that have huge downsies, like cooldown, high mana cost etc. But i think all of those nodes are actually really clever and well balanced (for the majority of cases)

Choosing certain nodes and come up with solutions to work around the downsides is one of the most fun things for me.

@Dobster

If the devs do happen to read this, please don’t make this into another PoE. LE has so much potential and you need to stick to your guns and head in your own direction and take some risks.

I always had the feeling EHG has a very clear vision of what their game should be at the end. And we as players don’t see the whole picture yet. All game systems introduced are just cogs in a larger machine we don’t see completely yet.

There is so much still missing. And i never had the feeling or fear that LE would become too similar to other similar games.

[Irrelevant]

@Dobster

The new skills being added feel similar to skills in other

Come up with 3 totaly new skills and skill mechanics that haven’t beed anywhere in some way shape or form and are programmable and useable. I’ll be impressed. On top of that there are some basics for this kind of games people ant to have for example some kind of spin to win.

So far I’m pretty happy about the skills and their passive trees but I’m still wating for new skills and the missing classes to see what these have to offer. I think so far we’re in a pretty good spot.

@Dobster

As time has gone on I can’t help but feel that the game is moving away from what I hoped it would become

How and in what way? So far i think the devs are doing a good job in keeping it the intended way. Sure there have been changes like the resistence stuff but this was a question of time because there are simple systems for balancing and other systems that make balancing problematic. I realy wish they get away with using easy and intuitve things rather then trying to invent the wheel again and fall flat.

They have a lot of stuff to do if they want an 2021 release and I think we diddn’t even saw the most crucial parts to come ^^.

[XLVI_carpo]

@Dobster

I came across this game a few years ago whilst on my endless search for a game to replace sacred 1 & 2. Instantly it felt like this could be the one I’d been looking for. A unique style and quirky skills that you could do some crazy stuff with and try and create the character that you wanted. One of the other attactions of Sacred was that you could travel anywhere in the world as it was completly open world. Last Epoch didn’t offer the open world feel but I hoped as development went on that the game would go down that path.

I played Sacred 1 a lot. Dived right in when Sacred 2 was released. Sadly the bugs at the start drive me away from the game. I was playing with a bunch of friends and they moved away from it and took me with them. Now I regret not playing S2 anymore. It was an absolutely unique game not only mechanics wise but also the overall atmosphere and style.

I personally never had the impression that LE would go for a more open world. Right from the start the maps were very small and very straight. The funny thing is that now that you an @Llama8 are mentioning the open world topic, I think this could have been a huge thing.

I doubt that this was in the agenda. The instanced maps allow to lay the focus of level design, quests and all that stuff on a smaller part and work on that small parts with different teams. Having an open world, one large map for each era, would be much harder to create and connect. It’s absolutely possible, but needs a lot more effort, I think.

I really like the idea of having an open world, although I’m sure it will never happen for LE.

@Dobster

If the devs do happen to read this, please don’t make this into another PoE. LE has so much potential and you need to stick to your guns and head in your own direction and take some risks. I know it’s going to be good and I’ll play the hell out of it but I can’t help feeling you might be playing it a little too safe.

Absolutely agree!

You seem to have a strong feeling that EHG are going the safe road and implement mechanics that people are familiar with, pleasing players of other games. I personally can’t judge if this is the case, because I haven’t played PoE (you referred to) that much.

But I agree with the general statement of creating uniqueness!

It’s absolutely helpful to have the big players (content creators) promote your game because you ported one of their most favoured skills/mechanics. But on the other hand, if those people are so keen to have a similar playstyle, they could just stick with the game they’re already playing.

To stay with the PoE example: It doesn’t make sense to “copy” PoE to attract people that like PoE but are searching for PoE style in a new appearance. Because this already is in development and is called PoE 2.

It’s a fine line to create new and innovative things, but also stick to other things that (the majority of) people expect in this genre.

The more popular LE gets, the more people get involved that maybe demand mechanics they like from other games.

I hope EHG makes the right decisions on this topic. Having a friendly reminder, like this thread, isn’t a bad thing. Untill this point I think EHG did all the right decisions (my personal and subjective opinion)

Cheers!

[Llama8]

@Heavy

Also one of the relatively new skills “Death Seal” is one of the most unique and coolest skills i have ever seen in any game.

I’m not sure I’d go that far, it’s an AoE damaging skill that is attached to the player (like 2 skills from Sacred 2, this & this, or Trance of Wrath or Spectral Binding from Grim Dawn) mixed in with a “sacrifice” of any ward an hp you have (above the amount you had when you cast it) which other skills have had in other games.

I don’t want to say that there can be no new/innovative skills anymore but aRPGs & RPGs have had a good 20-30 years (at least) of creating new skills so at some point you’re going to get to “peak skills” and from then on the vast majority of skills will be iterations of skills we’ve had before with different effects in different combinations. And I think that “peak skills” happened some time ago.

[Llama8]

@XLVI_carpo

I doubt that this was in the agenda. The instanced maps allow to lay the focus of level design, quests and all that stuff on a smaller part and work on that small parts with different teams. Having an open world, one large map for each era, would be much harder to create and connect. It’s absolutely possible, but needs a lot more effort, I think.

I really like the idea of having an open world, although I’m sure it will never happen for LE.

There is precedent for significant changes (for the good) to happen in aRPGs though, when GGG went from 4 acts repeated 3 times to 10 acts (Fall of Oriath), that was a massive change probably (in my entirely inexperienced opinion) akin to re-tooling the levels & whatever gubbins loads the area the player is in to support open world.

If it happened (& it would be a very big if), it would have to be a long time after launch when the team & company are far more settled & financially secure and have the time & resources to start such a (presumably) mammoth endeavour.

But I can hope & dream (of an open world like Sacred 1 & 2).

[Heavy]

I feel like you mostly refering to the “Wave Of Death” component of Death Seal, which is only one part of the ability and is baseline only the explosion at the end.

The “locking” of your current hp is such a unique mechanic + the sacrifice of your current ward. (Generally other games have low hp mechanics, but mostly they are tied into passive components of skills or passives)

The whole skill tree of Death Seal is so interesting.

It is hard to create something entireley new, but all i wanted to say EHG certainly comes up with interesting unique ideas.

[Jerle]

@XLVI_carpo

Right from the start the maps were very small and very straight.

I’m actually concerned about this. It almost feel like the campaign isnt designed for MP. The instances are narrow enough even for single player.

[Heavy]

But on the other side, this incentivises playing together and and not splitting up too much.

But the MP aspect is a whole other aspect anyway.

[Jerle]

@Heavy

But on the other side, this incentivises playing together and and not splitting up too much.

On the contrary. My concern is basically that even now, when I kite too many mobs and dont have enough DPS to clear quickly, I end up choking myself in the map because of all the mob collisions. Assuming that also happens player-to-player, I am almost sure people wont want to stick close to each other, for fear of getting into each other’s way.

[Dobster]

@Jerle

@XLVI_carpo

Right from the start the maps were very small and very straight.

I’m actually concerned about this. It almost feel like the campaign isnt designed for MP. The instances are narrow enough even for single player.

I had hoped that the maps being long and straight were just place holders to flesh out the main quest design and that with development the areas would open out much further with lots of side quests. As things are now you just head from A too B in the quickest path possible with little reason to explore. As I said in the OP I had hoped that LE would be more like Sacred but quickly realised it was heading to be more like PoE in regards to following the main quest.

@Heavy

@Dobster

Skill tree’s also seem to have too many negative effects to every positive. I want to feel powerful without having such huge trade-offs.

Not really sure what you mean exactly. I mean yes there are some nodes that have huge downsies, like cooldown, high mana cost etc. But i think all of those nodes are actually really clever and well balanced (for the majority of cases)

Choosing certain nodes and come up with solutions to work around the downsides is one of the most fun things for me.

I can see that for some players like yourself it can be fun to workaround the negatives on skill choices but I don’t really see why the negatives are required. If I want to modify a skill to make it do what I want, why should I be penalised? levelling up a skill and seeing it’s potential and then realising that you can now only cast it once before going OOM, or having it’s duration reduced down to the point that renders it almost useless is not fun. Using the Mage skill Ice Barrage as an example, which feels a bit like PoE’s Winter Orb. The skill tree has lots of interesting choices but when I’ve tried to build around it all the downsides of some of the strong passives just seem to kill the fun. eg.“Ice Barrage has a faster rate of fire, but you move more slowly while it is active” among others that I really don’t understand the reasoning behind. Skills should get more powerful and more fun as they level up!

I think the main point I was trying to get across was that even though LE obviously isn’t the Sacred replacement I hoped it could have been, I really don’t want it to turn into another PoE just because it’s the safe/easy choice.

[Heavy]

Just touching on the skill downside section.

Most skills, like Ice Barrage have smaller nodes that only have upsides, which feels like a straight upgrade. Only soem of the bigger nodes have downsides. If you don’t like a certain downside and can’t or don’t want to build around it, there are always enough other options.

And if there are particular skills you would want to have X or do Y, i am pretty sure EHG will overhaul and revise alot of Skill Trees over time. Alot of skills have pretty old skill trees.

Most of the newer skill trees are already alot better. And not all big gamechanging nodes have downsides

[Llama8]

@Dobster

I can see that for some players like yourself it can be fun to workaround the negatives on skill choices but I don’t really see why the negatives are required. If I want to modify a skill to make it do what I want, why should I be penalised?

Balance & choice. Building around the downsides is part of the point, otherwise it’d just be node a = more hit damage, node b = faster hits, node c = bigger AoE which would be kinda boring. The nodes that really change how a skill plays could either be an upside or a downside depending on your point of view.

[Heavy]

I am not sure if i can follow you.

You are saying that when playing with multiple people in a party you want each player to deal “with his own mobs”?

I don’t like that playstyle at all. PoE is already waaay too much like this, which feels not like coop multiplayer, but rather like everybody is doing what he wants.

[Jerle]

@Heavy

You are saying that when playing with multiple people in a party you want each player to deal “with his own mobs”?

No. I dont want that. What I was saying is that the current map designs would likely force you to do that. Because the areas are so narrow (I end up getting stuck when there are a bunch of mobs around me) and particularly if there is players collision in MP.

[CaiusMartius]

@Heavy

@Dobster

Skill tree’s also seem to have too many negative effects to every positive. I want to feel powerful without having such huge trade-offs.

Not really sure what you mean exactly. I mean yes there are some nodes that have huge downsies, like cooldown, high mana cost etc. But i think all of those nodes are actually really clever and well balanced (for the majority of cases)

Choosing certain nodes and come up with solutions to work around the downsides is one of the most fun things for me.

Yes, and some of those ‘negatives’ can actually be turned into positives. Like Hammer Throw and Weighted Hammers. I noticed that when I have a high movement speed on my Paladin, without Weighted Hammers the orbit circle would have the hammers fly out so fast things wouldn’t get hit as I was running by them (especially when you’ve got other nodes that speed them up as well). Now throw in 3-5 levels of Weighted Hammers and suddenly that Hammer orbit is at an optimal rotation speed so as you train through stuff they’re almost always coming into contact with the orbit.

I LOVE this kind of synergy/discovery.