I think the crafting system seriously needs to be reworked/removed

Feedback and Suggestions
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I think there’s a large issue with the current end game gearing/crafting system at the moment. Primarily that it’s essentially a system of trying to overcome RNG/Loss through # of attempts and use of glyphs to try and mitigate the RNG.

Without trying to sound accusatory, I think RNG is a crutch developers rely on because it’s an easy way to create a system that is addictive in nature. Random rewards have a much higher dopamine response than expected/earned rewards. You can look into this fairly easy, there’s a lot of recent studies on it, heres some articles/studies about it:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3845016/

There’s inherently an expectation of loss(Fractures) when using the system, so you get a larger dopamine response when you finally succeed. So, why is this a problem if there’s enjoyment? Am I just anti-gambling?

Well, not really. Though I’d say for people who aren’t particularly inclined to gamble, it’s an unejoyable system. For people who are inclined to gamble, well, do they really like it or are they just being psychologically manipulated due to a genetic predisposition to a brain reward structure?

To get back more on topic, the reason I think it’s bad is essentially because, again without trying to sound accusatory, it’s lazy. It’s not a particularly engaging or interesting system, it’s essentially a slot machine. Multiple dice rows in a roll, and you either win or lose with no real input, skill, or decision making. Sure you can mitigate RNG sometimes, but after failing 4 80% rolls in a row it doesn’t really feel like it matters much. The system isn’t very rewarding, and to those who aren’t particularly drawn in by gambling, it’s probably just off putting.

I think if the intent is to create a system that relies on crafting, there are much better approaches than the one there is currently. Some more practical/realistic approaches would be things like increasing the tiers/decreasing the difference between tiers and requiring more shards/making them more rare. It’s still involves lots of RNG in getting the shards/bases you want, you can adjust the drop rates etc to make it take around a similar amount of time and you remove the gambling aspect. Essentially constant slow progress vs random reward.

Another approach could be to have a way to fix fractures/ensure 100% chance through some kind of rare material.

Ideally, the crafting system would be skill based(presumably along with a grind component, it is an ARPG after all). How you make a crafting system skill based is clearly a large and complicated endeavor though. FFXIV had a slightly skill based system, though really it was more of just a formula/algorithm and once it was figured out it was fairly uninteresting.

Currently as it stands though, it’s pretty sad to see a game I had really enjoyed until I got into the end game gearing system use what’s fairly typical of asian mmos(often with p2w aspects) and essentially analogous to loot boxes or any other pure RNG system. Ultimately, it’s just a simple, uninteresting, skill-less system, designed around an inherent response people’s brains have to random/unexpected rewards.

edit: me: RNG isnt the same as gambling, heres a bunch of reasons why, i think the crafting system could be designed simiarily without the negatives of gambling
every response: rNG iS gAmBLInG plAY a DiFFREnT gAmE
me: shocked pikachu face

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Let me tl;dr this.

Basically the guy wants the current RNG crafting to be put behind RNG drops. Literally no difference, you still roll the dice every time you kill a mob for an item. But it’ll make him feel better I guess.

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There’s an extreme difference, I even summed it up in the post at the end of the part you’re referring to. Slow progress vs random reward. They’re inherently psychologically different reward structures.

reading is hard i guess.

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I said no difference meaning in the end you’ll still achieve what you want. You can still luck out, find a valuable item and trade for that crafting material, just the way you can luck out and roll the right way several times in a row. Oh, but the current system is too unfair? No problem, so many crafting materials around they’ll eventually overcome your bad luck!

See, in the end its all in your head. You don’t want to take risks but the risks are not as great as you think.

Worth to note that Path of Exile, a game with way greater RNG crafting, is extremely popular and very rarely people complain about it.

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You’re not really addressing the point, maybe I didn’t make it clear enough.

The problem isn’t that theres RNG, the problem is that it’s gambling. You’re right that in some ways they’re similar, either way its just a grind. You’re saying they’re essentially the same, so what’s wrong with changing it to remove the negative aspect, are you suggesting the people that like the current one won’t like the new one? I guess they’re not the same then?

I’m very aware of what you said, I even pointed out in my first few sentences that it’s over coming RNG through numbers. And, I linked to many studies/brought up the psychological point that, yes, it is all in “your” head.

That’s my point though, gambling is unappealing to some people, and addictive to others. I then suggest alternatives that remove the gambling but are essentially the same. So unless your point is that people who like gambling will hate the other system(which I don’t agree with, presumably everyone who plays ARPGS enjoys grinding?) I’m not sure what you’re saying.

Further, my ultimate point was that the ideal is a completely different system, but that it’s probably unrealistic to ask for at this point.

edit: I don’t think mentioning PoE is relevant at all.

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You gamble every time you play a game like this. The next foe might drop something great or nothing at all. If your idea is to remove gambling how about this - you walk around, kill monsters and get drops after a certain amount of time has passed. This way nobody can complain that they are having a bad luck, nobody gets addicted and tries to search for that one great drop.

Also the game becomes way less exciting.

Yea, sorry, cant subscribe to this. The entire genre is based around RNG and beating the odds. The concept that this somehow is “gambling” is ridiculous. We are here for the big highs, ARPGs are all about grinding and finding great stuff but also spinning the wheel and crafting great stuff.

PoE is extremely relevant. You can win with 1 fusing or with 3000+, one attempt vs thousands and yet the system remains and is what makes the game so exciting to play.

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You gamble every time you play a game like this. The next foe might drop something great or nothing at all.

I’ve already addressed this twice, it isn’t the same as gambling. RNG != gambling.

If your idea is to remove gambling how about this - you walk around, kill monsters and get drops after a certain amount of time has passed. This way nobody can complain that they are having a bad luck, nobody gets addicted and tries to search for that one great drop.

Nice strawman

Also the game becomes way less exciting.

I thought you said what I was suggesting was the same, now you’re saying it’s less exciting and different?

PoE isn’t relevant, it’s a game that’s well established, at this point nobody playing it is going to have large issues with it or are already committed to it, especially with systems that have been around for a while. Also the idea that something is popular so it’s good is flawed, and the idea that because something has been successful, it can’t be improved/better is flawed. Also, last I checked, this game isn’t PoE.

PoE is extremely relevant. You can win with 1 fusing or with 3000+, one attempt vs thousands and yet the system remains and is what makes the game so exciting to play.

Yeah, so you’re a gambling addict. I don’t enjoy gambling and don’t think gambling is necessary for the game to be fun or interesting. If other people want to gamble that’s fine, maybe gambling really does make or break these games, though I still don’t think that’s true. But this is the feedback and suggestion forum and this post is what I have to offer for the crafting system.

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White supremacism much? Name me some western releases that is substantially different from the “typical Asian MMO” and is in line with the game designs idea you have here.

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White supremacism much? Name me some western releases that is substantially different from the “typical Asian MMO” and is in line with the game designs idea you have here.

rofl what

asian mmos refer to games like BDO/archage/the one where you fly/tera which all have crafting systems based around getting a base item and trying to upgrade it with a chance to break it as you get to higher tiers. The P2W aspect was mentioned because they literally sell items that reduce the chance of breaking items

Like are you just pretending or what

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Sure. I get your point.

So this are how Asians games are designed. And I’m asking you. Which western release design their systems based on what you’re espousing here.

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Which western release design their systems based on what you’re espousing here.

When did I ever say any western mmos had good systems? In fact the one example I gave of a game doing something kind of right is also an asian mmo, ffxiv

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The current system has nothing to do with gambling or asian mmo type of crafting. It’s a simple risk/reward system. You can’t compare arpg crafting and gearing in general, with those of a mmorpg where characters are permanent and have bis gear. Grim Dawn’s crafting system is more RNG based and it works fine. I think you failing to understand the concept of an arpg and how is it different from mmorpgs.

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The current system has nothing to do with gambling

Ok…

asian mmo type of crafting.

Well multiple asian mmo games have this exact style of crafting…

It’s a simple risk/reward system.

Oh, so gambling.

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My point here is that every game developer out there is probably using this mindless skillless rng dopamine based system because that is what works. No need to draw the straw man reference of Asian mmos.

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My point here is that every game developer out there is probably using this mindless skillless rng dopamine based system because that is what works.

I literally said that every developer does it…

No need to draw the straw man reference of Asian mmos.

Well thats not what straw man means, and I used the short hand of asian mmos because many of the promiment examples of this specific crafting system in modern gaming happen to be… asian mmos. And PoE apparently, but I’ve never played PoE and only found out about that due to another poster after I made the original post.

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Saying that crafting is the same because theres a chance of breaking an item, is like saying mass effect and baldur’s gate are same type of rpgs because you gain xp. You either trolling or never played an arpg before.

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The definition of gambling is literally risk vs reward. Thats what this games crafting system is. Risk vs Reward. How am I the one trolling?

How does anything you’re saying address any of my points?

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Alright. Let me just sidestep all of that. And go back to your original suggestion.

Which game out there has successfully executed this idea of yours and it’s actually fun to play in the longer term? (And I note that even in your positive example of ffxiv you said it was uninteresting when figured out). Because the sense I’m getting is this ideal crafting system you have in mind is just a fantasy that doesn’t translate into implementation.

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I said FFXIV gets less interesting after its figured out because it’s somewhat formulaic, I didn’t say it was bad. I think FFXIV has the best crafting system of any game I’ve ever played(and spent hundreds of hours on it), maybe that didn’t fully come across in the post. I didn’t want to discuss other games really though, mostly this one.

You’re right, no game has an “ideal” crafting system, and its unlikely that any game ever will. That doesn’t mean we can’t try to make things better. I don’t recall saying any game has executed any of my ideas, however D3 is an example of “slow” steady progression as opposed to gambling.

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Alright. Thank you for indulging me. I don’t think I still quite agree but I suppose we just have to agree to disagree. Good luck in pushing for your suggestion.

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