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Feedback on 0.7.4 and VK from current "highest" Voidknight

Hello, my char is Knight_from_the_Void created specifically during the latest patch. Currently lv97 and wave ~197 iirc.
My game was more or less “done” already by lv80,
Actually watching the druid vid from servire where he was doing 30k aoe autoattacks with literal trash t2 rolls gear and not final weapon (while i had a final weapon and multiple t5 gear and was only doing an avg 20k with a 40mana spike skill) was demoralizing and killed the game entirely for me

But since i saw i was the highest pushing VK in the current patch i decided anyway to give a last long as possible push before coming here to give my feedback. I stopped at 97 anyway as it was only a matter of timesink at this point and also because VK doesnt look mature or 100% integrated yet (currently feels like a gimped sentinel/FG with a skill echo flavour)

Last Epoch
The skill system has lots of good ideas that create some good sinergy and gives room for some thinking.
At the same time it needs a lot of balancing work as from the trees i’ve tried the 50-75% of them seems to not be worth it or don’t scale well.

Also the system is prone to reach its limits fairly quickly, similar to grim dawn where devs literally can’t add a new class anymore, and opposite to poe where it’s easy to spam new skills and gems that then are going to work together with older stuff.

  • Loot filter. Can’t wait for it to become available. It is especially needed to catch those very rare mods like inc resist prefix or the other ones. It is very hard to catch one rare mod currently.
  • Crafting. Need and waiting for more crafting options. Something I think is really needed is some way to recycle those low lvl bases, either with a new rune/glyph that changes a base into another of the same, or with some bench/tool that let’s you destroy 3 bases for another of the same (cube style or recipe style) or something along the lines.

Other stuff:

  • Sovnya. It’s being said a lot around the forum. The weapon is too good or the others are too bad. Crit needs to be reworked somehow, my current char needed a sum of +400-600% inc dmg to be equivalent to the crit version, which is unreachable with current rolls.
  • Endgame balance. I know balancing must be a nightmare. I personally failed to get past to 200, i saw kissmequick’s video going well past 250+ with the old VK, but it involved a lot of oneshot bursting and kiting with no tank at all. Also he must have had bis gear like 3x t5 rolls, which i am impressed at how much he must have farmed (i gave up in that field as well, given how i could push for lv100 without it anyway).
    If you consider that other classes can go well over 200 with trash mods just because they nuke stuff, this means that LE also has fallen to the dmg vs tank paradox, where to reach extreme endgame dmg > tank
  • Endgame farming. Waiting for more variety, more biomes, maybe endgame bosses (see Chaosbane boss hunt or PoE endgame bosses), more loot. In my experience once you get double triple t5s, the time needed for an upgrade was homungous to the point getting to 100 was enabled way before getting a single new upgrade.

The passive tree is not too bad speaking of Sentinel trees, but by the time you reach the final points (~lv75), it almost stops being useful.

Void Knight
Last VK passive tree additions about the skill echoes was very needed and gave spice to the VK.
VK is a real cool idea for a class, but at the same time it suffers of a big identity crysis and has a lack of support from the gear.
It is really hard to understand or to make it work together with sentinel skills.
During the playthrough many questions arise that you have to figure out:
Is it a “timewarp” class or a “not so physical” class or neither?
Does erasing strike work with the weapon phys dmg?
What weapon base and dmg type to use together with the inc void dmg of VK?
Should it be built as melee? But it has some spells as well?
As of now it is good that we can try to use as many bases as possible but at the same time the tree doesnt seem to greatly support any of them, compare it with throwing, crit, healing, and block pts in various other trees.

I made 2-3 VKs so far, one melee and one caster, below is a bit of more detailed stuff:

  • As of now the class gives 50% melee void dmg plus a melee void skill. This kinda induces you to go melee at first. If you choose the path of full melee orb and void echo lose half or more their worth.
  • imo sceptre spec hybrid doesn’t work because of lack of block spec in the tree (making the shield very weak compared to the FG and Paladin), because void spells are very weak anyway, and also because sovnya is just too good atm.
  • Void Rifts from orb, echo and other onkill stuff. These need a big rework, as of now they have no impact even if using sceptres. The whole skill tree areas dedicated to rifts have no value compared to the rest of the trees. Consider investing on rifts on skills and doing 7k crits with vengeance and having onkill rifts critting for 200 dmg :confused:
  • Void orb. I didn’t manage to make any of the branches work, even with 300% base spell wands. “Shooting orb” and “Eruption orbs” both require full investment to get there and when fully specced these don’t seem to do anything. For sure void orb as a spell does not work “off the bat” like supposedly do caster classes with their own spells. Ultimately ends up becoming specced for the protection/dmg buffs it gives
  • Void Echo. I managed to find something almost working as caster main spell using the branch for +5 echoes (which is kinda fun around lv50).
    The rest of the branches are not there, maybe the debuff, but still not worth the skill slot. Suffers the same problems of needing a full 15+ pts to start making it work in some different way.
  • Both orb and echo “alternate branches” need to have one initial point of some kind that changes their behavious right away as primary skill without needing too many extra pts. Else they will always stay relegated as secondary skills and from there these become nothing more than buff skills, losing their worth as primary spells.

0 mana cost sentinel skills: Vengeance and Rive. As of now vengeance beats rive in every way, it deals more dmg with instant application, or it can give void essences, less dmg taken buff, global inc dmg. The only thing rive can give that vengeance can’t is that extra crit chance with strike 1.

  • Vengeance: Generally a good skill with lots of versatility. Maybe it is lacking a “void damage” branch. Didn’t try the dark blade path, the full dmg spec was just too good already thanks to the “more dmg” point alone.

  • Rive: Pretty weak in the end, needs a major rework imo. The void dmg branch is not ok at all. The strike 3 crit is a half noobtrap (unless you make some dedicated 0 crit chance build). It all comes down to the lack of a “more dmg” like vengeance. Cadence/double strike areas don’t seem that strong. Overall it loses vs vengeance even with fully buffed strike 3, also the need for 3 attacks to get the full dmg is a hindrance.

  • Extra: Hammer throw void spec. Needs a lot of work. Same issue as rive, the flat dmg “aura” doesn’t scale.

  • Rebuke void spec. Same as above, plus rebuke pts compete with defence buffs which have a hard to beat opportunity cost

  • To recap, the sentinel skills “void branches” need a overhaul (imo), the entry point into the void spec must be impactful to make it work right away instead of needing to spend 10+ pts before it becomes useful, like “convert all dmg into void” (think about grim dawn skill transmutes) and must become very competitive to beat defense buffs for example

  • VK tree. VK tree is overloaded with dmg to the point you get a summed diminishing returns (you can get past 200/300% inc dmg) and lacks defense. It would not hurt to have some extra spice like take dmg as void or something. Also some pts to fully convert dmg sources to void would work if tuned well. And the flat void dmg pts do not scale well imo.

  • VK gear. Really in dire need for a void base both 1h and 2h, very preferably not weak like every non sovnya base of course

4 Likes

very interesting read!

tried mainly void damage over phys damage + orbiting, pulsing void orbs + erasing strike( with void beams and their reduced proc count ) + echoes > 50%. did not use wand but had general melee char with normal weapons( no pole ). this allows to gather lots of void orbs while kiting an arena wave and kill it at once with 1-3 erasing strikes that will trigger the void beams that trigger the void orbs and everything escalates exponentially.

Your feedback is really well done and I share almost almost all your points.
One thing that came to my mind was that you said Rive is weaker than Vengeance, you can easily reach 20k+ crit with Rive with a full crit multiplier build (with the 100%crit chance on Rive3). However it can quickly reach its limit if you want to build it differently for a VK.

I also hope they will buff void spells and change a few passives that are melee exclusive. I also don’t rly understand why in the mastery passive it gives 50% increased melee void damage (why isn’t it 50% incereased damage ?) and the fact that erasing strike is the “VK” mastery skill feels a bit weird, they should give a more versatile skill that fits for all VK builds.

I don’t understand the hate for Rive, to me it seems better in every way to Vengeance. More attack speed, guaranteed crit, built in cull, and no mana cost make it very fun to play. The only downside I see to it is that melee in general feels very clunky – sometimes I walk forward for an attack when I’d really prefer to attack in place. I’m using a sword and board with pretty maxed out gear, doing 10-13k crits with ~200% attack speed. Damage seems fine up to 125 in the Arena.

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Well that section about void orb was mainly about when i tried to use it as a main spell on my caster VK, and it needed almost full lv20 investment and didnt do much damage anyway

About rifts, i dont know they seem to be just extra tooltips, i was dealing 7k to 20k hits and seeing like 200dmg rifts, when the next hit landing would be another 7-20k shot it doesnt seem to help much

Altho it is true i didnt fully explore all areas like void beams. It could be an excuse for me to test something more and get another level in the meanwhile :smiley:

Regarding rive, i did my first VK using rive as main skill specced for 100% crit on strike 3.
I find it weak for more reasons:

  • void branch inside rive doesnt scale so it makes rive weak on VK
  • crit tree can be not bad, but it is way better on FG that has crit on his tree (10pts for +100% chance and 10pts for +100% multi)
    In fact when experimenting with my first VK (pre 0.7.4) i ended up respeccing it into a forge guard to try out the difference with rive

How i ultimately found it inferior to vengenace was a simple black box testing, same gear and changing skills (iirc 2k+ sheet dps, 66% crit chance, 300% multi):
Rive, full dmg spec in all sauces, was doing 3k crits top on strikes 1-2 and 15k crits on s3
Vengeance, dmg spec, was doing 7-8k crits right off the bat

I was wondering about that void branch – there’s no way Strike 3 is doing an addition 24 melee void damage. I’m still super new to this game so I wasn’t sure if that was because the Rive skill doesn’t list “Void damage” or what. 66% crit chance has gotta require a bunch of investment, though, and with Rive you can ignore all of that and do something else, like stack attack speed. VK’s 40% chance to repeat is an amazing combo here as well, and I totally forgot to mention the free 30% leech on it.

My first character I found Vengeance to be super weak compared to Rive, so I switched towards the end of Act 1.

i just wanted to add I did have pretty much the BEST weapon one can currently get one my werebear. But yeah my other gear was trash. Gear really doesnt require much farming tbh i was max t5s on my lich at level 92, five levels lower than you when you made this guide. This post is complete relevant though and those 2 points were not to discredit your post. I farmed almost 400 hours this month and have tried my best to make builds work as you have. Though i don’t know how you didnt make it past wave 197, i got wave 230 on my lich and its a spell caster. Most builds are in a really bad place though but the devs are listening and working on making necessary tuning. As far as i know MP is their main objective currently. We just have to be patient. I know some of you are thinking this is coming from a “werebear main” and have prejudice against other builds, you would be wrong I haven’t played that build since it hit 100. I only play builds until i either reach level 100 or until they can’t go further in the arena as “proof of concept”. I don’t care about making the BEST build just making any build i can that will work. I don’t min max with the arena in mind (as in i ignore the builds that are over-used, excluding werebear but I had made that build without knowing it would be that pwoerfull) and just min-max each build to prove the power or lack of power in builds.

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I dont have so much playtime, i have 150h total i think i spent max 100h on this VK. It has 2-3x t5s on all pieces and it already felt like an homungous amount of farming time (probably exacerbated by the monotony and lack of an item filter), full 3xt5 or 4xt5 is unthinkable and gives me burnout already (at least if farmed as VK)

Id spend more time but VK currently just cant get there, kissmequick altho using pre patch VK had 99% bis gear topped out multi and chance and was only at wave 250 doing 30k dmg done 2-3 times while draining the mana pool twice or trice while the druid does it with autoattack so… talking about tank he had some absurd 2k life and was still kiting everything (my VK is probably 75% compared to his with 1.6k hp vs 2k, 85 glance vs 99, 300 multi vs 400, getting there would be another 100 or 200h which i dont really have given the beta stage of VK)

VK tree is hard to understand, it doesnt support any stat, it cant reach 100% crit chance, it can’t reach 100% block chance, the void branches in the skills give like +20 flat void dmg and maybe also some drawback :v

imo VK deserves special attention to make it right, because as a class it truly incarnates last epoch the game, all the others are archetypes and some skills are straight arpg homework (think about skeletons hammers and warpath)

Anyway I spent some time and my remaining guardian glyphs to try out all out inc void and aspd with sceptre + shield, inspired by previous posts and demonlord pally. It wasnt bis at akk but i was expecting something more, wave 20 was already giving it issues, i was doing better with random gear and a sovnya for sure.

The damage just isnt there, also what i found really weird is how 1.5k hp 66% block 70% glance cant tank anything it is either all out 99 block 99 glancing or go home

Alright that’s it hopefully this feedback will reach its purpose, ill be eager to try any further VK iteration from scratch, crossing fingers

im sure they will be looking into VK’s in the future. I don’t see them used that much anymore since the loss of holy aura. I think I read primalist is next on the list to be tuned though.

Vk can indeed hit 100% block. Put a few points in first row both paladin and forge and use ring of shield. 100% block easy. 100 % glancing blow is easy. Not so easy to stack 100% GB and still keep damage though. Its all about balance.

My recent respec is for max block on VK, without the 25% from RoS (10sec duration 15s cd, for 66% uptime), 38% shield + t4 roll block 11%, 8pts into FG 5pts into pally, 5pts sentinel block it is 67% block which doesnt seem to be enough at wave 50 even

tbh I wouldnt call it easy, going into FG+pally for 10+ points (13 for bare minimum +1 block pts) and using a slot for ring of shield (FG skill) is quite a detour from VK.

At this point why not roll directly FG or pally, they also have extra block and a lot of block procs on their upper trees. FG is really straight forward as you can pick block, armor, crit, throws, it is pretty straight forward. I would roll one actually and see how it fares with crit forge strike/molten blade, maybe even block

Fact is the VK tree offers no support to block, but the real question is what does VK tree offer? Here is the VK identity crysis

As mentioned the skill echo is a great addition, 15% cull and life leech are nice to have.
As a matter of fact it doesnt help much at wave 200 where all you want is either 100block 100glance (like demonlord) or just spamming 40k aoe hits (werebear), i can assure you the VK is stuck in the middle with lower block lower burst

Lol RoS doesnt give you +25% for 10 seconds it only gives +25% for 4 seconds, since it says if you cast RoS recently!! So after you cast RoS get block for 4 secondsm after that no block even if RoS are active

Correct So you just have to time that 4 seconds out of every 10 seconds you cast it or however often you want to cast it for when you Leap Head first into the mobs. It is possible to have 100%+ block whenever your actually in combat. You just wont be in combat 24/7. Off the top my head i dont know how lon the CD is on RoS but you could just cast it every 4 seconds as well but thats a mana eater.

the cd is 15 sec…

Need Faster CD on gear :slight_smile:

Where theres a will theres a way!!

I was just saying that Zaen said that he has 66% upytaime which is not true, even with cdr nodes on amu youll have 30% uptime at max

Agreed on feedback. Some mastery classes are just way weaker than the rest and some skills have WAY low base damage. Like for example i don’t why Warpath is designed to be a weak dps skill (2k crits at level 80 with sovnya). In PoE any skill can be a decent damage dealer, but in LE only selected skills have damage on them.

The balance will come. Imagine the diffculty designing the amount of skills that this team has and trying to balance them. This is why there is beta it cant be done on the first try.