Lich’s have no dedicated minions to their class but have minion passives up to level 30 in the class passives. Lich’s are notorious for having minions doing their dirty work for them as much as necromancers are. I get it your trying to divide the two but at least 1 dedicated minion could make its way into Lich.
Making a skill available through a mastery class is more about restricting other classes’ access to it than it is about making the skill available to that mastery class. As an example, Reaper Form is exclusive to Liches due to being an iconic part of their arsenal, which would be cheapened if other Acolytes such as Necromancers and Warlocks had access to it.
In your post, you refer to Liches being associated with minions - which they can be - but Liches in Last Epoch do already have access to a variety of skeletons, wraiths, and golems.
To get a better understanding of your suggestion, I would like to ask;
- Is there a particular niche you would like such a minion to occupy?
- By ‘dedicated minion’ do you mean a skill in the bottom half of Lich passives which other Acolytes can invest to gain access to, or one which is entirely exclusive to Liches?
- Making skills exclusive to a mastery class is one of the ways through which we reinforce class identity. Would you be happy for a minion-summoning skill to take a ‘slot’ in the Lich mastery if the opportunity cost was a non-minion-summoning skill being cut?
(I have also responded to your message on Discord.)
Do they really need to have a minion dedicated skill is the other question that needs to be asked here too? If there are two subclasses for acolyte and both of them involve summoning minions doesn’t it just feel like there is just one subclass except one of them is just going to do the job better? I think liches are fine how they are without a dedicated minion skill because minions are still important to them as a class its just not what the LICH is about its what the NECRO is about why make two subclasses about the same thing?
Acolyte as a base class is about minions, death, ghosts and spells. Lich is more about spell casting and getting up close with Reaper Form and Harvest. It’s gonna have a small focus on minions because it’s still technically an Acolyte, but just has more of a Necrotic and ghostly theme added to it. It doesn’t need to completely shy away from the base class and minions, it’s just different.
I think Lichs across the board can be anything they want to be so far in this game there is nothing they really can’t do sadly. Necromancers are the same they just have summons skills where lich has utility and survival skills that unlock. Necromancers feed and gain sustain from their own summons, lich does not at all so I guess that kinda makes sense? for question 3 Yes I would be happy : ) . I don’t even use a single one of the lich’s unlockable skills I find them underwhelming and replaceable with passives/gear that do it better. By better I mean survive-ability and AoE damage that isn’t up to par with other options.
Defile=gaining wards its only modifier is Spell no INT. I have acolyte for all my ward needs as well as a soul barrier
Soul Feast=gaining wards again AND costs mana AND takes up a slot to combo with Death Mark so you need two skill slots for optimized use for ward gaining, again something I can do with passives and nodes on other skills.
Aura of Decay=AoEish poison damage that also hurts you not really that good and doesn’t really work well with anything at the moment minus melee lichs and even then its a spell slot and it has no minion specialization so again can’t really talk about it can’t really hate it can’t really like it. Thematically its the only AoE poison spell you have and I assume it is suppose to synergize with reaper form so you better use all those passives on lowering health loss and poison resistance. Wait nope…life leech on hit life leech on damage life leech on spell so…no no I don’t. Well you better get all that warding skills we gave you…wait no no I don’t. So sorry I see the theme but your own game mechanics make them not really worth investing into. Especially when your passives and gear can do it for you. So yes I would like a dedicated minion on lich so I don’t have to waste points in other subclasses to get me a non-base class minion that can do damage/heal/support etc etc. Then 2 different gain ward skills and one that makes me get a second skill I may not even want to make it optimal. Not to even mention Defile works best with exhume so again with the two skills being tied together for optimal usage forcing players to chose between efficiency and effectiveness vs everything every other one skill can provide. For nothing but…ward.
Ah yes the Lich can do a little bit of everything very unfortunate lets also make it so that they can also do a little bit more summoning too alongside the other little bit of everything they can do. Apologies for the sarcasm and toxicity but the way I see it the Lich CAN do a little bit of everything they have poison physical and necrotic dmg at their fingertips and they get a little bit of support from the classes base summons and thats fine it fits their theme of being this master of undead and venom and its a very Lich like class. They CAN do a bit of everything because a lich is an all powerful wizard its cool its thematic and they feel like their identity is a little bit of everything. Their base summons are still extremely valuable to them and I feel like adding a class specific summon to the Lich would only take away from the thing that the Necromancer has which is to SUMMON minions it kinda feels bogus if the Lich can also get class specific summons on top of all their other stuff. Its kinda like hey you can be a necro and summon a lot of stuff or you can you know also be a lich and fight things and summon a lot of cool stuff IDK sorry guys I don’t really feel like theres a need to add this to the other multitude of things a lich can do they already have summons that are still core to their gameplay and they get other skills on top of it if you dont like the skills they have then maybe those skills just need a rework? As opposed to just ye know replacing one of those with a summon it just doesnt make that much sense.
Im not saying that the Lich is in a perfect spot or that everything about them is great im simply saying that maybe the solution to their problems isnt to just replace one of their skills with a summon skill but maybe look at how their skills function and try to fit them more in line with their passives. Just throwing something out and replacing it with a summon is definitely not a fix to their theme or playstyle or anything like that its just making them more awkward and compounding their issue of having just a touch of every style of gameplay. Im not a game designer or even a smart and creative person so i dont have a solution to what needs to change about them but throwing a summon in their definitely does not feel like the way to go.
Apology not accepted keep your sarcasm and toxicity to yourself. If you can’t get your point across without being those things sorry my guy not welcome here. Not to bring in annoying already semi established lore lich’s are what powerful necromancers turn into. If Last Epoch wants to twist and redefine that I am 100% behind them on that. But to say asking for a core summon on a lich because a necromancer exists in the game isn’t really that fair or justifiable. Like I said my main beef besides the no summon is their skills are both ward gaining skills that have a forced/semi forced dual mechanic that means you have to dedicate 2 of your skills slots just to gain ward. Ward is sadly just not that needed with the items in the game and passive nodes that exist within the acolyte and lich. Health regen is also not that big of a deal because gear and mods can over come their life loss along with their passives. So why waste ACTIVE skills to deal with something I can deal with PASSIVELY. Hell my 2hander lich found a yellow that completely negated life loss and their are items that give leech for every type of damage including a passive as well.
Ok so then it sounds like the class as a whole needs a rework in your opinion because adding a dedicated summon fixes none of the problems that you currently have with the class. It also makes people like me who dont really care for or want the class to have a dedicated summon now have to lose a skill that they potentially actually like.
EDIT:someone actually just made a build for aura of decay that they just uploaded to the forum that utilized both soul feast and aura of decay. just because youre not a fan or not that interested in it does not mean that others have not found some love for it and have even turned it into abilities they can use to do some of the current end game content.
I know I saw. As I said Aura of decay was left untouched by my opinions. Aura is good for melee Lichs.( like I said ). I do not remember him using soul feast.
Was it not soul feast? Or was it that other skull looking ability (cant remember the name) Either way he wasnt exactly a melee lich and utilized it in his own unique way. Sometimes skills just need to be changed or modified, the standing point is your main issues with how lich currently is still exist if one of these active skills become a minion summoning skill leading me to believe that the class as a whole needs a change because otherwise those problems will still exist.
It seems to me that Lich could have a core summon without losing any of it’s existing skills. The Reaper skill could have a passive that would summon a (much) less powerful Reaper to fight with you. Then, if you press the skill while the Reaper is summoned, it could “possess” you and have the same functionality it has today.
What an awesome idea. He could even cast all the non-summoning skills that you do, or get base skills like reap and Harvest, maybe marked for death.
So if you are melee, he is joining you.
If you are a caster, he is too (leeching blood and Souls himself, etc).
He could do a fixed 20% of the damage you deal, non-scale-able via other modifiers (so it can only be increased by increasing your own Damage Output - +necrotic/spell dmg/Poison dmg, +melee dmg/physical dmg, etc), not increase-able through minion-modifiers, and also Profits from your defensve stats and Health modifiers. That way it would still fit the theme of being not minion-based as a lich, but being a lich with a minion!).
Perfect for a lich melee, a lich caster, and a lich summoner-hybrid that goes melee-summoner or caster-summoner!
How about a Phylactery style minion? maybe it absorbs souls from kills and when you get enough it’ll revive you when you die? could be passive instead
If the suggestion would happen , a Beholder eye ( a freaking floating eyes which cast spell , petrify desintegrate etc…) or a demon would be cool
Thanks for the kind words
Lich is simply a bad name for it from my point of view. The class is centered arround the shapeshift ability and more melee focus. On the other hand the Lich still has minion skills afaik isn’t she able to summon ghosts and stuff like that?
I always advocate the unpopulat oppinion that there should be masterys that aren’t pet focused for summoner classes. The example I know most of is the primalist. Have the beastmaster with all the pets and the shaman with his totems… totaly cool with that. Now you have the druid who shifts and is forced into another skillset and he can’t use active pet skills anymore. Why do all the work to make the druid work with pets if you could simply remove it and have a class without pets to suite the fancy of people who dislike troubblesome pet behaviour?
The same thing should be applied to the Lich in my eyes. On the other hand… if a lot of people want pets for the Lich it might be cool to have specters that circle him. You cast the spell and for 10 seconds ghost circle arround you that deal dmg. With such a skill there could be a lot of possibilitys to make a skilltree for it and it fits the theme and would alow some sick interactions ^^.
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