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Crafting/Fracturing Mechanic

1.Different doesn’t mean better or good. Not saying PoE is any better though.
But again, at least there is no “destroying your items” “making it useless” in pushing for better items in PoE.

Rare affixes are hard to come by in both game, so your point is kind of invalid to me. At least, spam chaos make you feel like you in control of some sort, while hoping it to drop feel like u’r behind your luck 100%. Regular affixes are every where, so it “easy” if you don’t want perfect items in both game.

2.I’m fully aware of how collective memory works. Just like how I disagree w/, back in D3, people claim push on a rift after RG net more legs. So, when I said there is sth wrong with the %, I don’t bias.

Again, as I said in most of the “crafting” thread. I cheat by copy/paste my craft. So I continuously crafting 1 set of items over and over until it all perfect T5. The “memory” of how there are way more failure at 80+% is right there in a very short amount of time, not lagging out over a long session. So, it’s not collective memory.

But ofc, it’s RNG. Someone always has the bad end of the spectrum.

That’s why, we need some guarantee way to have good gear, not all RNG base. As in PoE, you collect enough currency, you trade for the items u can never create w/ your stupid luck. We don’t have trading here yet, so we need another way to help bad luck people.

Just trying to make less people rage quit the game. Because, for me, it’s nothing, you can make crafting 2x worse, I still cheat and have all the items I want anyway.

So how would you take a deterministic crafting system like LE’s and make it hard to get the “perfect” item (4x t5 affixes)? Maybe instead of preventing continued crafting a fracture reduced the afix you are crafting by 1 level, a major fracture reduced several affixes by 1 level and a destructive fracture reduced all affixes by 1 (or more) levels? They would probably have to reduce the instability as well otherwise it would be impossible to get high tier affixes after a certain point.

Why should a player be guaranteed good gear? It’s not even necessary to do the highest tier content (LizardIRL has done the hardest monolith bosses with just a staff, boots and a belt).

I think we need a way to ameliorate the hardest parts of RNG and I think fractures are part of that.

1/Seriously, Idk how would a good crafting be. Maybe instead of fracture, you remove the affix lvl or completely like u said.
Ofc, we need some rune to reduce the instability of items as well. No need to reduce it automatically.

2/Player should guarantee some progress after hours of gameplay. Without it, most people will just quit the game. Not all player are hardcore. Likewise, you can’t take what a handful of elite players like LizardIRL can do and balance the game around that. You have to balance the game around average joe, if you want the game to appeal to more players.

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In that case we shouldn’t make an inconceivable best as the enemy of substanced good.

Would you be okay with a player getting at least one best in slot item( T20) within their daily game time - lets say 4 hours?

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Idk the answer doesn’t mean I can’t see the problem. As I can see my car is not perform at it best, it still can run though, is not mean I can fix the car myself.
Pushing for the best is what normal people would do, please with the current, not best, situation, as least merely in a video game, is not what I can stand.

The amount of time/ effort vs the reward is debatable. 1 hour per perfect items or 1 week is entirely up to question.

I dislike analogies a lot but I’ll bite this one time!
The car is still working perfectly fine - you’re telling the car mechanics to make your car go faster without you possibly imagining how.
Is it plausible that your car cannot go faster?

I’m also wondering what makes you say that you want the game to have the best crafting system while you cannot even imagine a better one from the current.
Do you think that the developers aren’t trying their best?
Are developers simply pleased with the current and you’re positive that there’s a better system?

How would you reward the player so they always progress?

The problem with that is that after 11x (? one per slot) time periods, they’ve got perfect items for every slot for their build & there’s nowhere to go with that build. Then they either get bored & stop playing or start an alt.

Sorry if “the car” comparison make u confuse.
How about the body? I can see my body is not feeling so well. Maybe my diet, maybe sth wrong inside. IDK, i have to have a doctor to look at it for me. I can point to the part I feel wrong though.

Again, sorry to say this but the philosophy of “you cant do, you can’t comment” is kind of a 3-year-old way to get out of progression. I don’t have to be able to make a hollywood A+ movie to say it’s not good. I don’t have to be able to write a book to see a book is garbage.

Likewise, I don’t have to know a way to fix the game to see there is something not right with it. Get that? Raising a question, open it for debate is not the same as having the solution for that very own question. You have to get this straight.

How would I reward player progression? Personally for me I’d like a “currency system” where you can trade what u collect, in a (long) period of time for kind of the item i want. Thinking like the rune system in D2, you can’t always drop the highest tier of rune, but you can collect lesser one, a lot of them, to eventually make higher one. And finally make your dream enigma.

For example, like now we have the guardian glyph to increase some percent of crafting. How abt some system where we can trade x amount of that for a higher chance one? Just some preferences.

I see somewhere the dev want to make league/ season as well. So the math should be calculate that normal people can finish/ complete their character in that period.

But again, I know your philosophy, I believe you think the crafting system is perfect. That’s fine too. Because, at the end, it’s not you or me who can change the dev’s mind. We can just stick to our own speculation of each elements of the game.

Didn’t confuse me one bit, I just don’t like analogies because they often lack isomorphic features and ignore absence or presence of important, nuanced parallels.

Can you point to the part which is pathological in Last Epoch’s crafting?
How would the “not sick” Last Epoch’s crafting system look like?

Never said anything like this.
I said that if you cannot describe or picture how the better model would look like, then it’s abhorrent to claim that the system should be improved because it gives no sense of direction how to begin or if it’s even possible. If you cannot point a reference to a better model than the current best, then it’s unreasonable and unproductive to demand results better than the current best model.

Correct me if I’m wrong.
You want players to be rewarded linearly at a constant rate so once the player has dedicated sufficient amount of hours - the player can cash in their dream prize?
Does this mean that I will get a T20 item after lets say 100 hours of collecting currency without fail?
What would you say to the "Average Joe"s who cannot collect currency for the “long period of time” as they have no chance of obtaining the awesome stuff?

Where did I state or imply that?

Which, of course, is why they are analogies, to give someone an idea of what you’re talking about without having to go full legal on them with every single nuanced piece of data, potential occurrence & the like.

Ehm, i read the first post and then a bit, but it is a lot to read.

Just wanna say that i personally would be fine with just having an endless amount of gambler items. Like, just let me buy the same ring some dozens time without refreshing x3 the amount of time. And well, obviously removing that delay after buying an gambler item.
Adding that shattering is a feature of the forge or the runes are buyable endless.

That would keep the whole crafting system but at least makes it possible to work and use the money towards crafting the desired items.
While getting unlucky, i can at least just buy fast 10-20 new items until i get some at least close to what i want and start over again.

Those other runes seem partly worthless to me. Why would i reroll items (except uniques…) when this adds instability? Or removing affixes randomly? When i could afford to add more instability, i would not need those runes in the first place.

Else, a real great and customisable loot filter that supports the need of finding such specific equipment to start crafting successfully would be good, too. :stuck_out_tongue:

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1.Not sick would be you have 0 items, 0 good gear. Crafting have a chance to increase that 0 to a positive number. Right now it have a chance to also making a negative number. Feel wrong and anti progression to me.

Ofc, different people have different view on how sth wrong, or right.

2.Yeah, you miss my point. Collective is one way to progress, for the bad luck people. There are also lucky way to progress too. That’s why I talk about D2 rune system, you can drop a zod, or you can make a zod. It’s both way. One is guarantee.

But again, if you are too far into any spectrum. Like, u too lazy to collect, have shit luck to drop awesome, nothing can help you. As I said, you can’t tailor the game to some extremist.

3.So you don’t think the crafting system is perfect? Where do you think it’s wrong? Or you don’t care to push for perfection?

3:I think the crafting system is wrong because it makes it hard to make high tier items in the most un-fun way possible. It doesn’t make it hard by effecting shard costs, just by demanding the player roll some dice and keep rolling 6s. Getting max tier items is less of a buzz and more of a relief that a shatter didn’t happen.

A system that makes high tier items harder to make that has no luck component would be preferable, just convert the instability shatter system into an increased shard cost system. Same overall effect, just less frustration.

Yes, that is very true but the use is very rarely properly conducted in a conversation for the causes mentioned and also demonstrated in posts above.
I was simply expressing a preference which has evolved through wasting too much time on explaining how the analogy isn’t true which is not obvious for most people in the first place.

Sorry for asking so many questions - I simply want to pursue coherence and consistency in your ideas.

You suggested for the removal of an affix tier as an option for a fail - is that not making a negative number as well?
Would a person not leave some gaming sessions with a negative number?

Here instead of runes( currency) you have item bases( currency) in a constant flow.
Here instead of rune tiers( strength of the drop) you have affix tiers( strength of the drop).

Is this comparison not satisfactory?

Does gold right now not provide a different pathway in progression?

Would you be okay with a few unique items which take 200 hours to farm?

I don’t think it’s perfect - there’s plenty to improve on.
I think it fails in depth and length as the formula for crafting the best items is too shallow and takes too little time to achieve.
I don’t care for perfection in a cosmical sense - I care for achieving the best results with what’s possible by using our current tools.

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I Agree with everything here, I also wish it were possible to modify items further, like you could in grim dawn with augments. Because affixes are rather shallow, most are simply base stats and most are rather easy to get via crafting. When the game isn’t bricking your stuff.

The best crafting systems essentially guarantee the result you want in exchange for lots of work - but this current system is very little work to make something and just bricks your item randomly for no reason. Exactly the opposite of what most people want from crafting.

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You’re absolutely right, there is no different in the negative aspect of both. But that’s why I have to put that ideal behind a guarantee success crafting chance.

Let me make a simple example
You want to buy a car, you can either:

  • Work for it, saving money (collective).
  • Hoping to win a lottery to have enough money to buy it (luck).

As of right now, the game give me zero option for collective. Here’s how.

  • Currency: no matter how many bases I have, there are zero way to make a guarantee T5.
  • No matter how higher tier of affixes I have, I have zero way to make a guarantee T5. Can I collect 1000x T4 items to guarantee me a T5? No. The word guarantee mean 100%. In no point in this current crafting system the number 100% appear in any of the higher tier craft.

Back to the buying car example. The currency and strength of the drop you provide is merely using more of your money to buy more tickets. Yes, you will have a higher chance of winning by buying more tickets, but still, no guarantee you would win.

For extremely rare drop, I’m indifferent about it. Maybe a rare drop as some trophy? As long as I doesnt make or break the game or require to finish the game, or again, a way to archive it. But it’s another topic, itemization or drop rate is not what i’m talking about here, because… to your last point.

How did you get the best items with crafting o.O!???
Shouldn’t the best be items w/ 4x T7? So a mere 4xT5 is kind of a stepping stone, a normal benchmark for what we all looking for, a perfect 4x T7 items? Maybe here is what make you and me have different viewpoint on the crafting topic??? If this weren’t for T6&7 affixes, I’d say the current system is fine, a little bit easy too. If if there are more tier of items, in which crafting can’t give, so crafting, in its current state should just be easier.

The crafting / fracturing from my side is overturned, complex does not mean fun (just grinding)
I would appreciate a crafting to upgrade your gear quality with a certain affix limited by the items quality and lvl.
I have too many shards stacking so with a system of upgrade you divide the shard drop and make them rare (maybe some runeword like in D2 to have unique ^^)

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Overall i agree with you.

But for this specific sentence, I’m sorry i totally disagree with you. Pointing flaws in the current system should be enough to emulate collectively possible answers or improvements.

For example; a totally legitimate feedback could be “I strongly dislike the current crafting system, because it generates a lot of frustration to see item in which i sank hours of gameplay become totally useless after a fracture.”

I think just pointing what’s wrong might be as valuable as chosing a specific direction for the system. It lets a lot of possible option being conceivable. I might also add that, not being a specialist in term of game mechanics, it let the people that knows (devs or highly qualified community members) being able to think of possible solutions while taking into account the current limitations of the system.

I think it’s there already. We farm gold. Instead of gambling and buying runes with it, in a very near future you’ll be able to buy the item of your dream to other people. Trading is the long term solution for a player that seeks a steady progress like you do.

TLDR : In my humble opinion, every form of feedback is welcome, as long as it’s polite and constructive. It doesn’t need to provide alternatives.

PS : Sorry for weird english.

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Sorry but it’s a bad analogy because we’re not making decisions which are instrumental to our well-being in real life - we’re playing a game which is supposed to stimulate our senses & emotions.

While in theory I understand that it’s rational to want guaranteed success, it’s not what most players truly seek from a game. The unpredictability and explosive events is what makes it fun for almost everyone.

Doesn’t have to be because there are statistical probabilities for each event and scenario.
You’d be happy with a system where you might have to collect 14,281,868,906,496 (14 trillion) El Runes while getting no other rune types and transmute them for your Zod Rune. It’s improbable but it’s not guaranteed to not happen!
Same way it’s irrational to worry than you’ll never get your T5 item - you will; with enough tries!
I would also make a brave assumption that you’d be happier to have 0.0000001% odds of chance in getting a Zod rune through a random drop rather than forced to collect 14,281,868,906,496 (14 trillion) El runes for it.

There’s nothing wrong in not having guaranteed success - there’s an element of luck in every and any popular game - be it in real life or the virtual realm.

It’s really not because you’re making claims about “good gear” and for someone this rare item might be their “good gear”.

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You’re right and I should’ve been more clear in what I meant earlier to have a more productive conversation.

I couldn’t read out a clear message from @sinobu’s posts other than that there’s a wish for an improvement so I was trying to present questions without strictly referencing to the game to first be able to break down the logic of the statements while eventually hoping to reach the question of "What part is it that you think needs fixing and why is it worse than the current version?

Your English is excellent (: