I declare from this day forth Beta 0.7.5 shall henceforth be known as the “One Shot” patch. Why is this happening ? Ill tell you why. Because right now the only way to kill us is with one shot mechanics. Now I am not upset at all. I am actually fascinated with the process you guys are going through with the game. Whats the main problem you ask ? Well here it is.
% damage leeched as health
This wouldnt be as big of a deal if player damage wasnt so high AND player health so low but that is where your design is now. I posted that this is a problem in another thread so I wont rehash. Im going to give an extreme example of what is happening.
Player A has 10 max hitpoints. He hits for 1 million damage. He has a 1% damage leeched as health affix. AKA the only way you can kill him is by doing 11 damage and that is what is happening.
The good news is this is fixable and just requires balance…
Remove the %. It is the easiest way to fix it short term. Remove every single leech % there is in every class, every affix. No exceptions.
OR…if you refuse to change the amount of leech players are getting, you could drastically increase health and/or lower all damage. That would also fix the problem but would require more balancing and is a more complicated fix (although it might be the best answer)
Full disclosure…This post was brought on by 11 one shots my poor paladin in suboptimal gear is enduring in arena right now. I am slogging through and my little guy is braving it the best he can but man is this rough. It will get better once he gets better gear but this is a beating right now…1000 hit points and I am taken from full health to dead by 2 of the champion mobs and their specific spells (Earthquake and Holy Nova??) unless I kite or use mob pathing or mob AI against them.
Other issues contributing to this are Glancing blows, Player Critical chance % being so high (still), and Critical strike avoidance but those topics are for another thread.
Thats not true at all lol. Cleared wave 400+ yrday with no problems on a build with 10-20k dps and 1.1% leech which is…100-200hp per second, which is literally nothing compared to 1.7k hp pool.
And from that run the most dangerous mobs were not one shot things. The only mobs that can one-shot me are ice elementals and i learned after dying once how to avoid their nukes. And still they oneshot only in pack. The actual danger were ghost rats(or dogs…idk what are they) that deal just absurd amount of hits which deal significant damage, they could just constantly drain my hp even through heal, health regen and leech, with max block and GB…
Moreover very few classes can leech with 1% leech, most of classes that do crazy leech are those that have 8+% leech like lich or druid. And afaik very few builds have like 20-30k+ dps. Imho leech values should get nerfed to the point when you can get 5-8% leech at max, where 4max coming from gear and 0-4 from you passive tree depending on the class.
But my char shows that the game is perfectly playable without crazy leech or abusing mechanics, so I do not see a real problem right now. I can understand that people who do not focus on defences much get one-shotted much more frequently, but if you get some gear it should be ok.
I do think that there should be One-shot mobs like ice elementals or earthquake boss, but their one-shots should be avoidable, and you can avoid them now if you play carefully. Also there are extremely strong mechanics like chill and slow that not many people use, but they allow to kite mobs so easily.
The fun part is: 100% block chance at 90% protection vs the dmg type, 88% dmg prtection vs the dmg type, 100% GB for the lols = another 50% protection at 800 HP and 112 HP/s reg getting oneshot in a map while all other enemys delt between 1 and 23 dmg. Thee wasn’t even a fancy enemy it was just a hord of regulars. So there was a dmg spicke of ~1.9k dmg inbetween there somewhere. All I’m wondering is… HOW?
I’m pretty much intrested if a dev will ever shed light into this matter.
Can you remember what type of mobs were they. Maybe they were the same mobs that i had problem with, cause in my case they were also just a pack of normal white mobs, but they did crazy dmg compared to other mobs (the ghost hounds)
As I said in another thread talking about one shots, among other things. Untelegraphed one shots are never fun, so if you guys could write down specifically which monsters killed you in one shot. Other information, such as health and defenses would also be helpful, even which ability killed you (that shows on the death screen), was it in the story, arena or the monolith of fate. All that would help a lot in terms of what we could balance.
Untelegraphed one shots are not fun, decently telegraphed one shot mechanics are fine if players are given the opportunity to play around them appropriately. If you do die to a one shot your first instinct should be “well I messed that up” if they are designed correctly. That said I’m pretty sure this is what you meant.
I was one shot by some of the next Chapter 7 mobs when it was first released, but I believe they have been toned down now.
For me it´s the Earthquake quys wit the Jumpattack. Most likely the exact same as Korimoor! The blue Circle on the ground!!! For me the problem is that they jump into ur path!
lvl61 Arena Wave 54: 268LightningRes, 785Life, 100% Chance for Glancing Blow and Juggernaut Stance! I know that´s not super good, and I should have gone more EleRes over Life, but still too much Damage for my liking on wave 54 with lvl61!
Besides that I´m not a huge Fan of Oneshots. Vaal Overoul is a example of a totally fine Oneshot though!
One thing no one has mentioned here is that for pure mitigation, its actually better to have low health than high health (literally, the higher your health/ward, the more your resistances go down). This combined with lifesteal makes the most optimal build have low amounts of life, high mitigation, and high damage with lifesteal. This is the first game I can think of that has diminishing returns on HP. This is one part of the problem.
I agree with OP that lifesteal shouldn’t be in the game. For people arguing otherwise, please note that D3 removed it entirely and POE had to nerf it into the ground so it now has to be a massive investment. Why would the two biggest games in the genre do this? Because offense should not equal defense. You should only be killing things faster so they don’t kill you, not because killing them faster heals you more. If lifesteal is going to be in the game, it should be harder to get than it is now. Many builds can get 10% but most can get 2% without even trying. Compare this to health regen where you need to roll it on gear and takes many passive nodes to come close to what lifesteal would give with minor investment.
There is no such thing as diminishing return here, you effective hp is hp+protections, so all protections re same as hp, you can treat HP as added all protections and armour, so it is questionable which affixes are better, cause protections work only for 1 type of damage and health works for everything. So depending on your build and class you need to calculate which setup is optimal
1600 hp with 50% mitigation is the same as 800 hp with 75%, but getting 75% mitigation is much harder than 800 hp
There are diminishing returns for health as it relates to resistances. As resistance numbers lower as you gain HP/Ward. As per the “unintuitive mechanics guide” by ‘Neyhoum’:
“[protections] are relative to your total HP pool. Each point of protection will act as one point of hp when taking damage, meaning the mitigation percentage formula is damage resisted = protection_value / (HPpool+protection_value).
Example : if you have 1000 life and 500 armor, you will take (500/1000+500) = 33% reduced damage. Easy breakpoints : if your protection score is HALF your HP Pool’s, you’ll resist 33%. If it is EQUAL to your HP pool, you’ll resist 50%. If it is double your HP pool, you’ll resist 66%”
This makes HP/Ward in effect diminishing, because the higher it is, the less valuable it is, because you’ll lose more of it when you take damage. I appreciate your understanding of HP/mitigation, as that’s how it works in most games. It doesn’t work that way here.
I have shared in another thread that I am of the opinion that leech should only apply to specific skills that have a “leeching” lore to it and not only give it a large node requirement with significant costs, but put the nodes in a location where it’s impossible to maximize both damage and leech. Things like Warpath that also provide movement and fast attack application make no sense that they would also leech from enemies - how do you even leech off something while you’re spinning like a top?
Lich’s should be able to be a “leeching” character because not only is Necrotic damage this game’s version of “Vitality damage,” but Lich itself has many nodes that provide trade-offs that include rapidly decreasing Health. Skills like Werebear (because frenzied animal form) and Bladedancer (because assassins usually carry some sort of Poison that transfers vitality from the enemy to the attacker) should have some leeching component associated with it.
By doing it this way and replacing all passive nodes with “% health leech” to “increased % health leech” that only apply to skills that already have it, you can focus your balancing on that particular node path / skill tree, while removing the chance for other classes like Sentinel to have the highest protections + highest damage + highest leech.
It would be interesting to hear how other players think about this. There are more than enough sources of passive healing, from Druid healing novas to Paladin’s Exclusive Skill Holy Nova to Judgment’s healing ground to Beastmasters’ + Acolytes’ multiple “flat health on hit / kill” nodes that change health leech in this matter will bring about change that can be much easier balanced than throwing %leech to everything.
Healing skills ingame aren’t tuned that good. If you take away leech a lot of builds don’t work anymore simple as that. Leech is one of the better defensive options for sure and will be balanced further without any doubt but removing it will result in the need to increase “Health on hit” and “Health on kill” a ton.
If you keep in mind that the devs want to get rid of glancing blows a lot of non sentinel players will have a realy bad time :).
Why and how some builds leech or don’t leech is a balancing descission rather then a lore descission. If certain skills can’t leech health they are bad vs skills that can. Saying a Werebear or a whatever made up class you threw in can leech because reasons could be easiely debunked by someone who sees things different. Right now some game mechanics are a bit dudu for sure but more or less adressed to change in the future.
You sound like leech is way superior than health on hit/kill (even plain regen?).
That is what some of us think what exactly the problem is.
It’s nearly impossible to properly to balance leech vs the other health-recover skills/talents. Better to remove it in this beta and try to balance the rest (as other health-recoveries and mob damage)
You can still make glass cannons, but now you must account of other way than just dps-ing to get your hp back up fast.
To me balance is make a choice between options that are similar (or better in some area’s but weaker in others), but having 1 option to be way better isn’t an option, it’s a must have.
The thing is everyone can build leech but not everyone will have a good time building HP reg or have heal spells. When I tested the boudrys with my Werebear I came up to 60% of my HP leeched back per second and there was plenty of room for more leech. When I was at lower max health I healed full with one swipe while having big protections.
Right now I play a Sentinel with only 50hp/s but thats enough because hes beyond tanky and don’t need more reg stuff. Other classes are more relient on hp reg and leech but it’s hard to balance this. Almost every ARPG got rid of health leech because it’s to potent at a certain point.
i would love to see how a Mage is supposed to heal, literally nothing we have is going to replace the little leech that we get off gear. We are already underwhelming when it comes to damage and defense so what else are we supposed to use. It’s funny because every single example given is every other class but the Mage class… Maybe they should just nerf every class into the floor but mage then we will all be on equal ground LoL.
I am aware they have been working on mage alot and i am excited to see what they do. i just get tired of having to completely rebuild my entire character… well hopefully things are better i have not really seen anything new posted on the Mage forums. so i am unsure
Uhm ward or ward or did I mention ward already? On top of that you get that “little” leech here and there. The new flame ward (?) spell is totaly broken and depending what mastery you play you get other nice spells on top of it that help with survival a LOT. Sure it’s not as easy as other classes have it but there are still possibilitys and yes I get your point they are worse then other classes options.
